Power increase
08-15-2007, 07:50 PM
#21
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Join Date: 08-11-2007
Location: N/W Chicago Suburbs
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Thats real enlightening view on what to do,what not to do and interesting to see the graph too. I'll probably go with a K&N filter only and a magnaflow exhaust. I've heard the dealers sometimes make some things better then aftermarket and this is proof. After all ,it is a 4 cylinder and if you want to go faster then you'de better be preparred to spend some money.
08-15-2007, 08:03 PM
#22
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Join Date: 10-02-2005
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Not to mention most of us "real" motorheads were wondering WTF?! at his exhaust discussion on why the IMCO was so great.... backpressure? and when fighting his exploits were dragged into petty arguements that ended with a locked thread or him just refusing to post anymore. I seem to remember this with the CGS dyno BS BTW!.. LOL
I wish I had someone with a stock intake and money for a dyno... I want to see what kind of gains my intake setup is providing if any. The filter is relocated to the Driver's fender well to get a cold air setup and uses 2.5" mandrel bends. Should be as good as stock if not a little better. Maybe then I can get some made and sell them as a vendor with a real "dyno" proven gain... LOL!
I wish I had someone with a stock intake and money for a dyno... I want to see what kind of gains my intake setup is providing if any. The filter is relocated to the Driver's fender well to get a cold air setup and uses 2.5" mandrel bends. Should be as good as stock if not a little better. Maybe then I can get some made and sell them as a vendor with a real "dyno" proven gain... LOL!
"The Ecotec engine requires a higher amount of back pressure than most engines." - Mike SoCalHHRs
I did some detailed tests on the backpressure of various mufflers. The IMCO T-924 was the absolute worst! Actually the factory "turtle" was a suprise and when I cut it open, it became apparent that the GM engineers did another good design job! The best was the Magnaflow, but in dyno tests only gained about 2 HP.
What was unfortunate, many people who had any real knowledge chose to leave the forum rather than to attempt to counter his myth, lore and outright BS.
08-15-2007, 08:51 PM
#23
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I think the thing to do to free up the exhaust a little is a hi-flow cat and maybe a header but I don't know how much any available headers improve over the stock exhaust manifold. However it is (or used to be) illegal to change out the cat under 50,000 miles unless its damaged.
08-15-2007, 09:18 PM
#24
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Join Date: 08-02-2007
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The factory intake "hat", as ugly as some may think (including me), has two things going for it:
1. It is NOT restrictive. MAP pressures will flat line through a power pull, indicating absolutely no restriction.
2. It is a "real cold air intake", drawing air from outside the hot engine compartment.
Just a FYI for the CGS fans (disclaimer: I think it's the best looking intake available), I hope you bought it for looks, not performance. Here's the FIRST REAL DYNO of the CGS compared to the stock intake...... The stock is the RED line; CGS is the BLUE. For your viewing pleasure:
1. It is NOT restrictive. MAP pressures will flat line through a power pull, indicating absolutely no restriction.
2. It is a "real cold air intake", drawing air from outside the hot engine compartment.
Just a FYI for the CGS fans (disclaimer: I think it's the best looking intake available), I hope you bought it for looks, not performance. Here's the FIRST REAL DYNO of the CGS compared to the stock intake...... The stock is the RED line; CGS is the BLUE. For your viewing pleasure:
08-15-2007, 09:31 PM
#25
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Join Date: 04-19-2006
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I may not know anything about how some of this stuff works...but I know I could definitely feel an improvement with the CGS and IMCO combination.
One thing I do know enough about is that with Microsoft Excel you can make a graph that will show anything you like. If we are to believe that what has been posted is in fact the real deal, please provide a link to where the information is officially posted.
One thing I do know enough about is that with Microsoft Excel you can make a graph that will show anything you like. If we are to believe that what has been posted is in fact the real deal, please provide a link to where the information is officially posted.
08-15-2007, 09:59 PM
#26
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What link? It's a dyno graph from couple of runs on his personal vehicle. They usually don't just publish that on a website unless it's a manufacturer posting their own results to sell their product. I can go do a couple of dyno runs in my vehicle out of my pocket and nobody is going to post them on a website unless I choose to do it myself. Just like Joe graciously did. 
Finally. 
BTW I know the HHR was dynoed at one of our supporting vendors facilities (Look in the upper left hand corner).
Like SoCal did? 
It's a dyno graph from couple of runs on his personal vehicle. They usually don't just publish that on a website unless it's a manufacturer posting their own results to sell their product. I can go do a couple of dyno runs in my vehicle out of my pocket and nobody is going to post them on a website unless I choose to do it myself. Just like Joe graciously did. Finally. BTW I know the HHR was dynoed at one of our supporting vendors facilities (Look in the upper left hand corner).
08-15-2007, 10:15 PM
#27
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Join Date: 10-02-2005
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I may not know anything about how some of this stuff works...but I know I could definitely feel an improvement with the CGS and IMCO combination.
One thing I do know enough about is that with Microsoft Excel you can make a graph that will show anything you like. If we are to believe that what has been posted is in fact the real deal, please provide a link to where the information is officially posted.
One thing I do know enough about is that with Microsoft Excel you can make a graph that will show anything you like. If we are to believe that what has been posted is in fact the real deal, please provide a link to where the information is officially posted.
No Excel... Just printed from actual dyno runs with Dynojet WinPep 7 software, which I have a copy of. You cannot "fudge" dyno run data, only display. No need for a link to "where the information is officially posted", as you just saw it above.
Hey, no agenda here, other than to finally get the truth out. I'm not selling anything. The data agrees with long proven scientific and engineering fact. Raise the intake air temperature and air density decreases, as does power. The SAE J1349 formula for thermodynamics equates to right about a 1% HP gain or loss per 10 degrees in intake air temperature. Want the actual formula to run through Excel? BTW, with your altitude in Denver the HP takes a big hit, also!
If you believe the myths about hot air intakes and need for backpressure, please don't tell Tony about it! Have Zippy put a CGS and IMCO on Tony's car and watch his Chase hopes go down the drain!
08-15-2007, 10:45 PM
#28
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Join Date: 10-24-2006
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I think the whole thing with the CGS/IMCO setup was the noise factor. More noise == more power! At least, in your mind it equals more power.
Ford's been doing this for years with the Mustang. Rather than actually build a faster car, they just build a louder car. GM built the later F-bodies, GTO, and Corvette with relatively quiet powerplants, yet they still bury ANYTHING Dearborn and Highland Park can put out with loud exhausts.
The CGS is a great looking intake. Especially ceramic or powder coated. Do I think it's worth $250 for a piece of light aluminum that cost $5 to make, nope. Do I want one for show? Maybe. Will I have a metal shop fab one up for me for $20? More likely.
As for the IMCO muffler, why on Earth would I want to replace a full stainless factory piece that makes more power with a replacement made of aluminized steel that's only louder?
Ford's been doing this for years with the Mustang. Rather than actually build a faster car, they just build a louder car. GM built the later F-bodies, GTO, and Corvette with relatively quiet powerplants, yet they still bury ANYTHING Dearborn and Highland Park can put out with loud exhausts.
The CGS is a great looking intake. Especially ceramic or powder coated. Do I think it's worth $250 for a piece of light aluminum that cost $5 to make, nope. Do I want one for show? Maybe. Will I have a metal shop fab one up for me for $20? More likely.
As for the IMCO muffler, why on Earth would I want to replace a full stainless factory piece that makes more power with a replacement made of aluminized steel that's only louder?
08-15-2007, 10:47 PM
#29
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Join Date: 04-19-2006
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When I see confirmation that this was in fact done by a reliable supporting vendor, this will become more credible in my mind. You can't read much of the top portion, so we can't tell which is which and who did it.
Part of my beef with this entire thread is the bashing of other members that is allowed to go on with nothing being done. I realize that Sindy is the only one here on a regular basis and people seem to take advantage of that and just bash away.
My car runs great here in Denver and in the mountains as well. There have been several other forum members who have brought their HHR's here as well and they too have not experienced a problem. I guess what amazes me is that so many people think they are experts and we are supposed to just take their word as gospel. If I knew as much about all this as many have said they do, I'd be in a different profession making this information available for folks like me that want more than just someone elses word.
How about making it big enough so we can read it? Post a link to a larger image please.
You believe what you want and I'll do the same. And do me a favor please, leave your sarcasm out next time will you please.
Part of my beef with this entire thread is the bashing of other members that is allowed to go on with nothing being done. I realize that Sindy is the only one here on a regular basis and people seem to take advantage of that and just bash away.
My car runs great here in Denver and in the mountains as well. There have been several other forum members who have brought their HHR's here as well and they too have not experienced a problem. I guess what amazes me is that so many people think they are experts and we are supposed to just take their word as gospel. If I knew as much about all this as many have said they do, I'd be in a different profession making this information available for folks like me that want more than just someone elses word.
How about making it big enough so we can read it? Post a link to a larger image please.
You believe what you want and I'll do the same. And do me a favor please, leave your sarcasm out next time will you please.