wolfman

Heavily subsidized, yes. Since you bring this up, you can not ignore the back door subsidy to oil in the form of wars fought in the name of securing "cheap" energy sources. Figure in the Trillions of dollars dumped into the Middle East to your fuel bill. We are not there for the benefit of that population. The region is one of strategic importance to us.

As for using more energy to make it than what you get back, no. Ethanol from corn is an energy positive endeavor, albeit not by a large margin. It is also a foregone conclusion that corn can not and will not be a long term solution for use as a fuel stock. There simply is not enough available land to replace fossil fuels.

The long term solution is currently being developed and is in use in numerous pilot plants across the country, and this is algae. There have been the last time I checked, a couple of plants moving on to full scale fuel production. Energy input vs. output for algae based biofuels is increased dramatically.

http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templat...d_Biofuels.pdf

Marzipan

The Owner's manual gives the last word on the fuel to use. Read the pages carefully. For example, for my 2008 2.4 engine here are a few quotes:

" ....we recommend the use of gasoline advertised as TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
[....]
... use premium unleaded gasoline with a posted octane rating of 91 or higher. You can also use regular unleaded gasoline rated at 87 octane or higher, but ....
[....]
At a minimum, gasoline should meet ASTM specification D 4814 in the United States or
CAN/CGSB-3.5 or 3.511 in Canada.
[....]
However, E85 (85% ethanol) and other fuels containing more than 10% ethanol must not be used in vehicles that were not designed for those fuels."

wolfman

2009 and newer 2.2L and 2.4L HHR models are flex fuel vehicles.

Tominator

I know several farmers and they just laugh all the way to the bank....and the energy production balance really depends on how new the facility is.....you can't just throw away the old stuff.

The war is subsidy argument is a largely false one. There have been no wars fought to get oil solely for US production and in fact most of our oil DOES NOT come from the mideast.

About 40 miles from where I live there is a new clean burn coal plant being built...a HUGE facility!

But the only real answer to our future energy needs is nuclear. Converting all industry to electric production frees up petroleum for transportation.

Government intervention and subsidies creates false market conditions and drives up cost....freedom runs on oil and will until most of us are dead.

E85 is an expensive dead end and does more harm than good. In a non-flexfuel car it will void the warranty and cause damage that may not be evident for many miles, but I wouldn't touch it even if I had a flex fuel car.

Snoopy

I find much of the "political" discussion regarding fuels, nu'clear, and coal stimulating and interesting.....but none of it answers the OP's question. I SUGGEST starting a separate thread OR resurrecting/adding to the existing ONES.

I may wish to add my 2 cents, but not contribute to the "hi jack" of this thread.

wolfman

This is one of the reasons why I largely do not like subsidies of any kind. They rarely result in their intended effect. As for the "old stuff" it can be and in most cases has been updated, so this is a moot point.

I beg to differ. This country has no problem ignoring conflicts in areas that have no strategic interest. As energy is an area of strategic interest, it continues to be a reason to maintain a presence in the Middle East. I am not villifying or glorifing our actions, just acknowledging reality.

I am aware of the fact that the M.E. is not our primary source. That does not make the area capable of seriously destabilizing the oil markets, nor does this eliminate our government's interest in the area. We only have to look at the oil shocks of the 70's to see this.

Excellent. No form of energy should be ignored if we are truly going to become an energy independent nation.

Nuclear has its place as well. I for one would like to see them come up with a means of actively neutrailiznig the spent fuel before building large numbers of these facilites, however. History has proven that no matter how hard we try to make them safe, someone finds a method in which to screw up, with devastating results.

Agreed, and again is a reason for me not liking subsidies. Oil still has it's place in our energy program. That said, we as a society need to look beyond it before it becomes a true crisis situation, not after. It took Brazil 30 years to see the end result of their own energy independence program, and they had a dictator demanding that it would happen. Our challenges will be harder, both politically, and in the implementation of a larger scale system.

E85 is a technology in its infancy. Algae derived fuels look to have a production cost of around a buck a gallon. At this stage, it will compete on par for pump fuel, as well as have the capacity to meet our consumption levels once enough facilites are built. Technology is always more expensive initially, and prices come down as production and R&D costs get realized, and new methods are designed to make the production of the product cheaper. I don't look at E85 as a one size fits all equation. There will be no "one size fits all" answer to an energy program that moves away from oil as the primary energy source. As such we must be looking at a multi-tiered solution to our energy demands.

wolfman

I would be more than happy if the mods were to remove the topic drift from this thread, and relocate them to the off topic section under a new name. I see that this is a topic that still needs to be debated with some.

Tominator

You are right, a simplistic no or yes would get this back on topic rather quickly...

BlackknighT

Check this Gov. website out for Gas vs E85 MPG and Cost... Just enter in the year and type of car.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

Comfortably Numb

I don't know anything about E-85. I've never even seen it anywhere, although I suspect it could be found in Salt Lake City and Las Vegas where I have been in the last 6 months, I did not see it in either place when I looked for and bought gas. I do know that it is not even available where I live or anywhere within a couple of hundred miles of here. That alone would make me much less likely to use it, kind of hard to use if it can't be had. Luckily I don't have a flex fuel vehicle so it really makes no difference to me.