E85/Flex Fuel
09-08-2008, 10:16 PM
#21
New Member
Join Date: 08-17-2006
Location: midwest
Posts: 16
on the .gov fuel milage site the hhr running e85 gets 21mpg.. on reg gets 29.
here e85 has typically been about 1.00 per gal less than reg giving a small fuel savings.
with e85 the octane is like 110 but fuel work is less.. so more fuel is needed but the compression can be higher to recoup some mpg.
if i remember right the variable valvetiming vvt is suppose to lower the compression when the motor is running on regular gas otherwise detention occurs..
one thing if disrupted fuel supply from overseas e85 is a temp help..
i see vw jeep bmw using diesels..
the vw jetta wagon gets about 40hwy it is going to be sold here in the u.s. this fall i think. it passes the new smog rules
the jeep patriot built in the u.s. but is shipped to the u.k. gets 50hwy some hypermiler got 66mpg
the bmw x3 is about 40hwy also in the u.k.
there are biodiesel plants being built now.
so when is a hhr diesel turbo getting 50 + going to be released....
oh yeh diesel is about 40cents a gal.but milage increase by over 1/2 again more makes up for it.
wouldnt it be nice to take a 300 mile trip and only use 6 gal diesel at about $24 rather than 10 gal gas or 15 gal e85.
over a 15000 miles a year period the savings start adding up.
thanks chevmgr
here e85 has typically been about 1.00 per gal less than reg giving a small fuel savings.
with e85 the octane is like 110 but fuel work is less.. so more fuel is needed but the compression can be higher to recoup some mpg.
if i remember right the variable valvetiming vvt is suppose to lower the compression when the motor is running on regular gas otherwise detention occurs..
one thing if disrupted fuel supply from overseas e85 is a temp help..
i see vw jeep bmw using diesels..
the vw jetta wagon gets about 40hwy it is going to be sold here in the u.s. this fall i think. it passes the new smog rules
the jeep patriot built in the u.s. but is shipped to the u.k. gets 50hwy some hypermiler got 66mpg
the bmw x3 is about 40hwy also in the u.k.
there are biodiesel plants being built now.
so when is a hhr diesel turbo getting 50 + going to be released....
oh yeh diesel is about 40cents a gal.but milage increase by over 1/2 again more makes up for it.
wouldnt it be nice to take a 300 mile trip and only use 6 gal diesel at about $24 rather than 10 gal gas or 15 gal e85.
over a 15000 miles a year period the savings start adding up.
thanks chevmgr
09-08-2008, 10:56 PM
#22
New Member
Join Date: 08-18-2008
Location: arlington texas
Posts: 14
I just traded my 07 LT1 HHR in for a 09 HHR Panel and the dealership was so kind as to "fill up" my tank before i picked it up. I noticed on the way home, the lack of power and was reading the onboard computer and noticed i was getting crappy MPG.. I discovered they filled it with E-85. I drove it for 2 weeks on that tank of E-85 and i was never so glad to finally see the LOW FUEL indicator come on. The instant i filled up with good ole unleaded, it was like a whole different car. I absolutely hated the E-85. When i did the math with the crappy mileage and lack of power, i was getting better mileage for my money on unleaded. Not to mention there is only 2 gas stations in all of Dallas-Ft Worth that i have found that even sell E-85. I know i will never run it again.
09-08-2008, 10:56 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: 08-26-2008
Location: Sequim Washington
Posts: 1,488
E85 compatible vehicles no longer use an alcohol sensor to determine and adjust for alcohol content of the fuel in the tank. Instead, the vehicle calculates the alcohol content of the fuel through measured adjustments. The ethanol calculation occurs with the engine running after a refueling event has been detected via a measured change in the fuel level sensor output. The virtual flex fuel sensor, V-FFS, algorithm temporarily closes the canister purge valve for a few seconds and monitors information from the Closed Loop fuel trim system to calculate the ethanol content. This logic executes several times until the ethanol calculation is deemed to be stable. This may take several minutes under low fuel flow conditions such as idle, or a shorter time during higher fuel flow, off-idle conditions.
Air-fuel ratios and the corresponding ethanol percentage are updated following each purge-off sequence. The fuel alcohol content percentage value can be read on a scan tool.
When an E85 compatible vehicle is built, an ECM replaced, or if the learned alcohol content has been reset with a scan tool, the fuel system will need to contain ASTM gasoline with 10 percent or less ethanol content. A minimum of 11 liters (3 gallons) must be put in the tank in order for the vehicle to recognize a refueling event. It is not necessary to turn the ignition OFF in order to have the refueling event recognized; however, local safety regulations should be followed.
After the refueling event, the system registers the amount of fuel that was added, relative to the amount that was in the tank. Reading fuel trim and O2 sensor activity, the system determines if the fuel added was either ASTM gasoline or ASTM E85. Based on that determination, the system adjusts to the expected alcohol mix in the fuel tank, and then the fuel trim and O2 sensor activity fine-tunes the adjustments. The system must remain in Closed Loop in order for this adjustment to occur. Numerous short trips after switching from gasoline to E85, or E85 to gasoline, can result in driveability symptoms due to the inability of the system to adjust for fuel composition by not attaining Closed Loop operation.
Air-fuel ratios and the corresponding ethanol percentage are updated following each purge-off sequence. The fuel alcohol content percentage value can be read on a scan tool.
When an E85 compatible vehicle is built, an ECM replaced, or if the learned alcohol content has been reset with a scan tool, the fuel system will need to contain ASTM gasoline with 10 percent or less ethanol content. A minimum of 11 liters (3 gallons) must be put in the tank in order for the vehicle to recognize a refueling event. It is not necessary to turn the ignition OFF in order to have the refueling event recognized; however, local safety regulations should be followed.
After the refueling event, the system registers the amount of fuel that was added, relative to the amount that was in the tank. Reading fuel trim and O2 sensor activity, the system determines if the fuel added was either ASTM gasoline or ASTM E85. Based on that determination, the system adjusts to the expected alcohol mix in the fuel tank, and then the fuel trim and O2 sensor activity fine-tunes the adjustments. The system must remain in Closed Loop in order for this adjustment to occur. Numerous short trips after switching from gasoline to E85, or E85 to gasoline, can result in driveability symptoms due to the inability of the system to adjust for fuel composition by not attaining Closed Loop operation.
ChevyMgr,
As usual...great info and explanation.
I come from Old School thinking...I wonder how my fix would work ?
Put switch on the dashboard. E-85 // Gas......Hmmmmm....to simple?
09-09-2008, 08:51 AM
#24
New Member
Join Date: 08-17-2006
Location: midwest
Posts: 16
I just traded my 07 LT1 HHR in for a 09 HHR Panel and the dealership was so kind as to "fill up" my tank before i picked it up. I noticed on the way home, the lack of power and was reading the onboard computer and noticed i was getting crappy MPG.. I discovered they filled it with E-85. I drove it for 2 weeks on that tank of E-85 and i was never so glad to finally see the LOW FUEL indicator come on. The instant i filled up with good ole unleaded, it was like a whole different car. I absolutely hated the E-85. When i did the math with the crappy mileage and lack of power, i was getting better mileage for my money on unleaded. Not to mention there is only 2 gas stations in all of Dallas-Ft Worth that i have found that even sell E-85. I know i will never run it again.
we have a e85 flex fuel vehicle a 2004
what i have experienced is actually a smoother running motor quieter..
no hesitation and no difference in noticable power..
just the lower mpg. and about $1.00 a gal less than regular..
to me it sounds like you
1.either experienced what chevymgr suggested ie irratic driving symptoms
or
2 got some old old e85 with water.
i would give it a couple tanksof good gas then try another tank of e85 let the computer adjust.
then if you still have eratic engine operation a trip to the dealer would be in order as the vehicle should operate smoothly on e85
i for onehad been waiting for the e85 availability its not the solution but i would rather send my money to local farmers then overseas!
good luck keep us posted
03-15-2013, 08:34 PM
#26
New Member
Join Date: 03-13-2013
Location: USA
Posts: 21
ChevyMgr or anyone, so what's the deal if you only ever use gas (closed loop still required?), never switching to E85, but the computer continually trips up insisting there is E85 in the tank? And the computer expects what circumstance from an automatic vs a manual trans after filling to reset composition?
What was the down side to simply using a sensor in the damn tank? Easy - but most importantly fast and real info as opposed to a computer overthinking and making a driver jump thru hoops. But no money in replacing an easily accessible economical sensor. And I assume how each company's car reads fuel thru the ECM and reset expectations are different? Lots of patents out there making companies richer.
And what would be the evidence or consequence of the computer losing all its supposed IQ and being unable (or unwilling) to read any fuel type at all? Would the car not turn on? Would it lose power soon after driving?
What was the down side to simply using a sensor in the damn tank? Easy - but most importantly fast and real info as opposed to a computer overthinking and making a driver jump thru hoops. But no money in replacing an easily accessible economical sensor. And I assume how each company's car reads fuel thru the ECM and reset expectations are different? Lots of patents out there making companies richer.
And what would be the evidence or consequence of the computer losing all its supposed IQ and being unable (or unwilling) to read any fuel type at all? Would the car not turn on? Would it lose power soon after driving?
Last edited by manualtrans2.4; 03-16-2013 at 10:04 AM.
03-21-2013, 12:17 AM
#27
Platinum Member
Join Date: 04-09-2006
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 7,037
Ahh, thats 8 questions in 3 paragraphs. I think its a new record. And I am sorry man, a lot of them just don't make sense.
You really should go back to the first page of this thread and read ChevyMgrs first posting in the thread.
You really should go back to the first page of this thread and read ChevyMgrs first posting in the thread.
03-21-2013, 01:53 AM
#28
Join Date: 11-27-2011
Location: Saranac Lake, NY
Posts: 6
2.4 ltr engine super premium fuel
I did find a couple of places in northern new york state that sell E85 fuel and now there is some savings with the higher price of fuel.
The manual in my 2011 HHR with a 2.4 liter engine says to use the highest grade of premium available. Although in an emergency a lower grade fuel may be used, but according to the manual, pinging and run-on may occur.
So my question is: What do you guys think about my using the highest grade fuel now at the price of $4.48 per gallon in northern New York state up in the beautiful Adirondack Mountains?
Any info you may have or even just your usual wonderful opinions are much appreciated.
Thanks guys and gals.
cariapat
The manual in my 2011 HHR with a 2.4 liter engine says to use the highest grade of premium available. Although in an emergency a lower grade fuel may be used, but according to the manual, pinging and run-on may occur.
So my question is: What do you guys think about my using the highest grade fuel now at the price of $4.48 per gallon in northern New York state up in the beautiful Adirondack Mountains?
Any info you may have or even just your usual wonderful opinions are much appreciated.
Thanks guys and gals.
cariapat
03-21-2013, 10:29 AM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: 01-13-2008
Location: Washington State, where it rains
Posts: 4,708
You want to addd more parts that are susceptible to failure instead of letting a (proven) program using existing parts do the calculations? The questions you ask are really of no concern unles your trying to reprogram the tune,,,its not going to fail in the way you think.. and if it does your going to have more problems then just confusing what kind of fuel is in the tank. Lose the IQ? You wont be driving very far....wont even leave the driveway...
03-22-2013, 02:23 AM
#30
Platinum Member
Join Date: 04-09-2006
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 7,037
I did find a couple of places in northern new york state that sell E85 fuel and now there is some savings with the higher price of fuel.
The manual in my 2011 HHR with a 2.4 liter engine says to use the highest grade of premium available. Although in an emergency a lower grade fuel may be used, but according to the manual, pinging and run-on may occur.
So my question is: What do you guys think about my using the highest grade fuel now at the price of $4.48 per gallon in northern New York state up in the beautiful Adirondack Mountains?
Any info you may have or even just your usual wonderful opinions are much appreciated.
Thanks guys and gals.
cariapat
The manual in my 2011 HHR with a 2.4 liter engine says to use the highest grade of premium available. Although in an emergency a lower grade fuel may be used, but according to the manual, pinging and run-on may occur.
So my question is: What do you guys think about my using the highest grade fuel now at the price of $4.48 per gallon in northern New York state up in the beautiful Adirondack Mountains?
Any info you may have or even just your usual wonderful opinions are much appreciated.
Thanks guys and gals.
cariapat