HHR quality compared to perceived Foreign
03-21-2007, 05:21 PM
#71
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Thread Starter
Join Date: 07-30-2006
Location: new york
Posts: 52
Well I started off this long series of posts with a pretty simple situation really. I LOVE my HHR (even though I have had to have too many pain in the neck visits to the dealer/service dept) and for 6 years previous with my Toyota and Honda I had none! So with all the very interesting posts (and there were many) I as a typical consumer and maybe I'm the exception, but my experience will lead me back to Toyota or Honda next time. Now someone posted that I am comparing a low priced American Car to others and if I want quality I should buy luxury for a proper comparison. Wait a second there :), the Toyota was a Matrix (not a Camry or Avalon) and the Honda was a CRV (not an Accord or their full size SUV). Also someone (same person I think) said one should only buy American, only support our economy, and on and on. Wait a second there again :)...you bought an HHR, which was researched and developed in the US, but is made in Mexico, the salaries go to Mexicans, the money stays in Mexico (profits to GM yes). How is that better then buying say a Toyota which is researched and developed in Japan, but is made in America, with salaries and benefits going to American workers and the money staying in those towns in America. I think we actually benefit the middle class American more by buying a car MADE IN AMERICA (even if the final profit goes to Japan, it keeps food on the American workers table), then to buy a care MADE IN MEXICO (with no American assembly worker getting a dime!). So yep, the motto, buy American Made is a good one..so put a for sale sign on the HHR and practice what you preach :) :).
The quality difference (which in my humble opinion I think does exist) is pretty much based on one simple fact...profitability and design. An American Union Worker wants too damn much money to assemble a car, and wants fully paid health care benefits on top of that...some making 60 or 75 and hour to assemble a car..plus benefits!!!! The car companies have to pass that on yet their sticker prices have to remain competitive...so what goes by the boards...quality! Design is the other factor. I work for IBM. I interface constantly with my counterparts in Germany and Japan. I can tell you first hand that the typical employees level in pride of workmanship and wanting to "do it right the first time" and a strive for perfection is VASTLY greater than the majority of my USA co workers who worry more about how much vacation they will get, why do I have to contribute to my benefits now, when is my next break.
Oh well, I ranted and raved and lets face it, none of our posts are gonna change a thing. It is simple reality that Toyota is number one worldwide in a lot of classes, and will soon surpass GM and Ford overall (and already have CAmry as number one) in the states, for a reason...people are not buying it because it is cheap or stylish that is for sure...it is the QUALITY!!!
My father just this week bought a new 2007 Corolla. I was pretty much overwhelmed when I tried it out. When you stop at a light you think you are in your living room, it is silent, no engine feel, nothing, just quiet. It is trimmed like a luxury car inside (woodgrain dash, console, even the center console armrest is covered with a luxury fabric). It has every bell and whistle known to man (power everything, outside temp, 5 disc CD changer, 6 speaker stereo, tilt, cruise, electronic dash, the kickplates along the rocker panels under the doors where you get in and out are chrome with a Corolla logo, lighted vanity mirrors both sides, etc.) and all this for just over $18000. He traded in his four year old Honda and paid only an additional $1200!! I think this all speaks volumes as to why Toyota is selling "like hotcakes". Oh, and MADE IN AMERICA too!
The quality difference (which in my humble opinion I think does exist) is pretty much based on one simple fact...profitability and design. An American Union Worker wants too damn much money to assemble a car, and wants fully paid health care benefits on top of that...some making 60 or 75 and hour to assemble a car..plus benefits!!!! The car companies have to pass that on yet their sticker prices have to remain competitive...so what goes by the boards...quality! Design is the other factor. I work for IBM. I interface constantly with my counterparts in Germany and Japan. I can tell you first hand that the typical employees level in pride of workmanship and wanting to "do it right the first time" and a strive for perfection is VASTLY greater than the majority of my USA co workers who worry more about how much vacation they will get, why do I have to contribute to my benefits now, when is my next break.
Oh well, I ranted and raved and lets face it, none of our posts are gonna change a thing. It is simple reality that Toyota is number one worldwide in a lot of classes, and will soon surpass GM and Ford overall (and already have CAmry as number one) in the states, for a reason...people are not buying it because it is cheap or stylish that is for sure...it is the QUALITY!!!
My father just this week bought a new 2007 Corolla. I was pretty much overwhelmed when I tried it out. When you stop at a light you think you are in your living room, it is silent, no engine feel, nothing, just quiet. It is trimmed like a luxury car inside (woodgrain dash, console, even the center console armrest is covered with a luxury fabric). It has every bell and whistle known to man (power everything, outside temp, 5 disc CD changer, 6 speaker stereo, tilt, cruise, electronic dash, the kickplates along the rocker panels under the doors where you get in and out are chrome with a Corolla logo, lighted vanity mirrors both sides, etc.) and all this for just over $18000. He traded in his four year old Honda and paid only an additional $1200!! I think this all speaks volumes as to why Toyota is selling "like hotcakes". Oh, and MADE IN AMERICA too!
03-21-2007, 05:46 PM
#72
Platinum Member
Join Date: 05-09-2006
Location: "Upland" Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 6,805
I can understand that some people may prefer one automobile magazine to another but when different magazines are coming to similar conclusions there must be some something going on.
Maybe the japanese are somehow controlling our media sources and paying them off so that they can make more money and have a better precieved quality??? Maybe it's all a big conspiracy? I know people love a good conspiracy every now and then.
Maybe the japanese are somehow controlling our media sources and paying them off so that they can make more money and have a better precieved quality??? Maybe it's all a big conspiracy? I know people love a good conspiracy every now and then.
You sound like a certain politician, here in the states !!!!
03-21-2007, 06:03 PM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-15-2007
Location: WNY
Posts: 3,329
In my many years of driving I've owned America, Japanese, British and German cars. The best car mechanically was a '75 Chevy Nova with the small eight (best damned engine ever built). The worst were a tie between a '68 Austin Healey Sprite (British) and a '79 Ford Fiesta (German) with an 84 Toyota Tercel not far behind. The latest Consumer Reports Automobile Buyers Guide gives our beloved HHR a thumbs up with a "Recommended" rating. I've only had my baby for 2 1/2 weeks but I have nearly a 1000 miles on her and she's still solid as a rock. Time will tell, I guess...but so far so good.
BTW...the HHR as we all know is assembled in Mexico and comes with a Chinese engine according to my neighbor who worked at the Buffalo Chevy engine plant....I have to take him at his word on that since he built engines for 30 years and knows their product.
BTW...the HHR as we all know is assembled in Mexico and comes with a Chinese engine according to my neighbor who worked at the Buffalo Chevy engine plant....I have to take him at his word on that since he built engines for 30 years and knows their product.
03-21-2007, 07:38 PM
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-10-2007
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 211
A little on the Motor Trend comment. The final straw for me came when their "Long term test" Camry (this was a few years ago) blew a head gasket after 5000 miles and their reaction - I kid you not - was "Oh well, ours must have been a very rare example". That MAY be the case, BUT if it had been American they would have ripped the car to pieces. How many MT and C&D articles have ripped the Corvette up oneside and down the other for not having an interior that compares with a 911 - which costs 10s of thousands more! How many times do we get to read about the Impala winning quality awards, but then being derided as being a plain "rental/taxi/cop car"? Hold everyone to the same standard! Don't trash one company for one thing, while giving somebody else a free pass.
The funny thing is that Toyota is NOT winning the accolades they once did. The new Corolla was delayed to the NA market due to quality concerns, and their big recalls aren't exactly filling me with confidence. Companies like Honda and Hyundai DO deserve the praise they have received as they continue to strive towards excellence in quality. I just think GM should get credit where it is due (Impala, Malibu), but I have no problem with people griping where improvement is still required (Hey, look! It's GMDAT!).
NO ONE has the market cornered on Quality!
The funny thing is that Toyota is NOT winning the accolades they once did. The new Corolla was delayed to the NA market due to quality concerns, and their big recalls aren't exactly filling me with confidence. Companies like Honda and Hyundai DO deserve the praise they have received as they continue to strive towards excellence in quality. I just think GM should get credit where it is due (Impala, Malibu), but I have no problem with people griping where improvement is still required (Hey, look! It's GMDAT!).
NO ONE has the market cornered on Quality!
03-21-2007, 09:03 PM
#76
Banned
Join Date: 10-24-2006
Location: The Show-Me State
Posts: 1,761
Well I started off this long series of posts with a pretty simple situation really. I LOVE my HHR (even though I have had to have too many pain in the neck visits to the dealer/service dept) and for 6 years previous with my Toyota and Honda I had none! So with all the very interesting posts (and there were many) I as a typical consumer and maybe I'm the exception, but my experience will lead me back to Toyota or Honda next time. Now someone posted that I am comparing a low priced American Car to others and if I want quality I should buy luxury for a proper comparison. Wait a second there :), the Toyota was a Matrix (not a Camry or Avalon) and the Honda was a CRV (not an Accord or their full size SUV). Also someone (same person I think) said one should only buy American, only support our economy, and on and on. Wait a second there again :)...you bought an HHR, which was researched and developed in the US, but is made in Mexico, the salaries go to Mexicans, the money stays in Mexico (profits to GM yes). How is that better then buying say a Toyota which is researched and developed in Japan, but is made in America, with salaries and benefits going to American workers and the money staying in those towns in America. I think we actually benefit the middle class American more by buying a car MADE IN AMERICA (even if the final profit goes to Japan, it keeps food on the American workers table), then to buy a care MADE IN MEXICO (with no American assembly worker getting a dime!). So yep, the motto, buy American Made is a good one..so put a for sale sign on the HHR and practice what you preach :) :).
The quality difference (which in my humble opinion I think does exist) is pretty much based on one simple fact...profitability and design. An American Union Worker wants too damn much money to assemble a car, and wants fully paid health care benefits on top of that...some making 60 or 75 and hour to assemble a car..plus benefits!!!! The car companies have to pass that on yet their sticker prices have to remain competitive...so what goes by the boards...quality! Design is the other factor. I work for IBM. I interface constantly with my counterparts in Germany and Japan. I can tell you first hand that the typical employees level in pride of workmanship and wanting to "do it right the first time" and a strive for perfection is VASTLY greater than the majority of my USA co workers who worry more about how much vacation they will get, why do I have to contribute to my benefits now, when is my next break.
Oh well, I ranted and raved and lets face it, none of our posts are gonna change a thing. It is simple reality that Toyota is number one worldwide in a lot of classes, and will soon surpass GM and Ford overall (and already have CAmry as number one) in the states, for a reason...people are not buying it because it is cheap or stylish that is for sure...it is the QUALITY!!!
My father just this week bought a new 2007 Corolla. I was pretty much overwhelmed when I tried it out. When you stop at a light you think you are in your living room, it is silent, no engine feel, nothing, just quiet. It is trimmed like a luxury car inside (woodgrain dash, console, even the center console armrest is covered with a luxury fabric). It has every bell and whistle known to man (power everything, outside temp, 5 disc CD changer, 6 speaker stereo, tilt, cruise, electronic dash, the kickplates along the rocker panels under the doors where you get in and out are chrome with a Corolla logo, lighted vanity mirrors both sides, etc.) and all this for just over $18000. He traded in his four year old Honda and paid only an additional $1200!! I think this all speaks volumes as to why Toyota is selling "like hotcakes". Oh, and MADE IN AMERICA too!
The quality difference (which in my humble opinion I think does exist) is pretty much based on one simple fact...profitability and design. An American Union Worker wants too damn much money to assemble a car, and wants fully paid health care benefits on top of that...some making 60 or 75 and hour to assemble a car..plus benefits!!!! The car companies have to pass that on yet their sticker prices have to remain competitive...so what goes by the boards...quality! Design is the other factor. I work for IBM. I interface constantly with my counterparts in Germany and Japan. I can tell you first hand that the typical employees level in pride of workmanship and wanting to "do it right the first time" and a strive for perfection is VASTLY greater than the majority of my USA co workers who worry more about how much vacation they will get, why do I have to contribute to my benefits now, when is my next break.
Oh well, I ranted and raved and lets face it, none of our posts are gonna change a thing. It is simple reality that Toyota is number one worldwide in a lot of classes, and will soon surpass GM and Ford overall (and already have CAmry as number one) in the states, for a reason...people are not buying it because it is cheap or stylish that is for sure...it is the QUALITY!!!
My father just this week bought a new 2007 Corolla. I was pretty much overwhelmed when I tried it out. When you stop at a light you think you are in your living room, it is silent, no engine feel, nothing, just quiet. It is trimmed like a luxury car inside (woodgrain dash, console, even the center console armrest is covered with a luxury fabric). It has every bell and whistle known to man (power everything, outside temp, 5 disc CD changer, 6 speaker stereo, tilt, cruise, electronic dash, the kickplates along the rocker panels under the doors where you get in and out are chrome with a Corolla logo, lighted vanity mirrors both sides, etc.) and all this for just over $18000. He traded in his four year old Honda and paid only an additional $1200!! I think this all speaks volumes as to why Toyota is selling "like hotcakes". Oh, and MADE IN AMERICA too!
Tell you what. How about YOU wake up at 4:00 in the morning six days a week for 35 years, trapse into a dingy plant at 5:00 for morning start-up, and work 12 hours a day standing fixed in one spot doing one repetitive task 1,500 times a day. Then you come home at 6:00, fall asleep at 7:00 and start the process all over again.
You'd be back at your cush job at IBM in less than a week.
The truth is, people just don't want to be seen driving an American car right now because it just isn't hip right now. Looking like you spent oodles of money on an "import" is, and it's just the icing on the cake that they're assembled here. Perceived quality is the excuse for spending more money than the car is really worth. Assembled means just that--assembled from parts made everywhere but here. You shut down a Toyota plant, you'll lose about 1,500 jobs in a city. You shut down a GM plant, not only do you lose about 2,500 from THAT plant, but about another 5,000 just from the supporting industries AROUND that plant.
The HHR is like the Camry in Mexico. Final assembly is done where the labor is cheapest. Actual manufacturing of the components is scattered across the continental US. Body and chassis in Ohio, engine in New York (not China!), and the transmission in Michigan and Indiana.
BTW, that extra money that you're spending on an import--where does it go if they're not paying their employees anything for their work and you're not getting any more features on that car?
03-21-2007, 09:42 PM
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: 01-31-2007
Location: New Hampsha
Posts: 2,479
How many people here plan on keeping their HHR's for over 150K miles? I would say the majority of the people here maybe put on 15-20K miles per year and bought the HHR as a fun, different looking vehicle. Am I right?
If you planned on keeping and driving a vehicle for at least 300K miles would you buy a GM? Or would you go with a Honda or a Toyota? Not trying to bait anyone or trolling but a serious question..I have no problem saying I bought my Matrix due to the fact that Toyotas have a proven track record of being able to rack up the miles and be very reliable.
Now after renting an HHR I fell in love with it...had a blast driving it...would LOVE to own one...BUT...will it make it to 200K miles? I'm not convinced that it would...I have a feeling most HHR owners here will never see that kind of mileage on their cars..maybe some will..I don't know
I don't think Rick is all that far off with his comments....I can see where they may be upsetting to some folks but there is a lot of truth to what he is saying...
Goose
If you planned on keeping and driving a vehicle for at least 300K miles would you buy a GM? Or would you go with a Honda or a Toyota? Not trying to bait anyone or trolling but a serious question..I have no problem saying I bought my Matrix due to the fact that Toyotas have a proven track record of being able to rack up the miles and be very reliable.
Now after renting an HHR I fell in love with it...had a blast driving it...would LOVE to own one...BUT...will it make it to 200K miles? I'm not convinced that it would...I have a feeling most HHR owners here will never see that kind of mileage on their cars..maybe some will..I don't know
I don't think Rick is all that far off with his comments....I can see where they may be upsetting to some folks but there is a lot of truth to what he is saying...
Goose
03-21-2007, 10:28 PM
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: 09-01-2006
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 2,178
I plan on putting AT LEAST that many miles on my HHR!!!
and I have no doubt it is capable of achieving those mileage numbers! and how many people stare and/or stop you to ask about your car when you are driving a Toyota, particularly a Camry?!? UMMMMMMMMMMMMM, ZERO! A Toyota is for people who only care about a car to get them from point A to point B...I am a car guy, and I want something I can be PROUD to own, as a PROUD American, which is why I only buy GM! and hhrcrafty, I love everything you had to say, you put it right on the money buddy!!!
and I have no doubt it is capable of achieving those mileage numbers! and how many people stare and/or stop you to ask about your car when you are driving a Toyota, particularly a Camry?!? UMMMMMMMMMMMMM, ZERO! A Toyota is for people who only care about a car to get them from point A to point B...I am a car guy, and I want something I can be PROUD to own, as a PROUD American, which is why I only buy GM! and hhrcrafty, I love everything you had to say, you put it right on the money buddy!!!
03-21-2007, 11:13 PM
#79
Senior Member
Join Date: 06-21-2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 939
Hey Goose, to answer your question:
I fit into the group your describing. I bought my HHR almost purely on impulse only becuase it looked really cool and provided some functionality. To me it was a really cool car. As other people have mentioned, I bought this car becuase it was "hip." I still love the look and coolness of it but I got pretty tired of the problems that have shown up, and I haven't had many problems at all. Had I really thought about the purchase I was making and not jumped right into the purchase of the HHR I would have bought an Audi A3. But, I have to live with my decision, probably for another year and then I'll most likely give the HHR to my mom or brother and get whatever catch my eye at the time. After owning my HHR since Sept 2005 I have put on 25,000KM.
I've had some really good experiences with GM in the past (back in the 90's.) I basically grew up with GM's but I've seen the quality slide. Up until the Christmas my dad drove a 94 Buick Skylark, as a winter vehicle (this was also the vehicle I learned how to drive with) and it had about 360,000KM but it was wrecked in an accident. My brother, until this last week, drove a 94 Olds Achieva, which also has 300,000 plus KM but he bought a Nissan Pickup. I also know that other Buicks from the 90's that my aunts and friends had ran like crazy. They were tanks and nothing stopped them.
The GM of old made great cars, that were well engineered, thought out, and serviced and cared about by GM. That doesn't exist anymore, in my opinion. GM seems to be unwilling to change and progress and keep up with the automotive market and they are being hurt. One of the things that bothers me the most is the 4 speed auto. I know, some people say it's bullet proof and sure it might be. I know a lot of economy cars still run 4 speeds but would it really hurt to be ahead of the game, or at least playing the game, by putting in a 5 speed auto. This summer I looked at the new Buick Lucerne as a car for my mom. The sticker on a loaded V8 version was $50,000 plus CAD and it came with a 4 speed auto. Come on, for that kinda money in a luxury car through in something more sophisticated, lets see a 5 or 6 with a manual shift mode, it's pretty standard amongst the competition.
Anyways, this has diverted somewhat from my initial intentions of a post and I'll call it quits for now.
I fit into the group your describing. I bought my HHR almost purely on impulse only becuase it looked really cool and provided some functionality. To me it was a really cool car. As other people have mentioned, I bought this car becuase it was "hip." I still love the look and coolness of it but I got pretty tired of the problems that have shown up, and I haven't had many problems at all. Had I really thought about the purchase I was making and not jumped right into the purchase of the HHR I would have bought an Audi A3. But, I have to live with my decision, probably for another year and then I'll most likely give the HHR to my mom or brother and get whatever catch my eye at the time. After owning my HHR since Sept 2005 I have put on 25,000KM.
I've had some really good experiences with GM in the past (back in the 90's.) I basically grew up with GM's but I've seen the quality slide. Up until the Christmas my dad drove a 94 Buick Skylark, as a winter vehicle (this was also the vehicle I learned how to drive with) and it had about 360,000KM but it was wrecked in an accident. My brother, until this last week, drove a 94 Olds Achieva, which also has 300,000 plus KM but he bought a Nissan Pickup. I also know that other Buicks from the 90's that my aunts and friends had ran like crazy. They were tanks and nothing stopped them.
The GM of old made great cars, that were well engineered, thought out, and serviced and cared about by GM. That doesn't exist anymore, in my opinion. GM seems to be unwilling to change and progress and keep up with the automotive market and they are being hurt. One of the things that bothers me the most is the 4 speed auto. I know, some people say it's bullet proof and sure it might be. I know a lot of economy cars still run 4 speeds but would it really hurt to be ahead of the game, or at least playing the game, by putting in a 5 speed auto. This summer I looked at the new Buick Lucerne as a car for my mom. The sticker on a loaded V8 version was $50,000 plus CAD and it came with a 4 speed auto. Come on, for that kinda money in a luxury car through in something more sophisticated, lets see a 5 or 6 with a manual shift mode, it's pretty standard amongst the competition.
Anyways, this has diverted somewhat from my initial intentions of a post and I'll call it quits for now.
03-22-2007, 01:20 AM
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: 05-01-2006
Location: New London, CT USA
Posts: 2,507
Our 1979 Impala went 250,000 miles for us. Granted my dad was cheap and did not change the suspension for the last 100k, so the ride was softer and bouncier the longer it lasted!
Put many thousands of miles on my Corvairs and Buicks over the years. Just starters and radiators got changed besides normal wear items. My Voyager was another story. Bad design on the first couple rounds of Chrysler mini vans. But it soured me on Chrysler, though they have some hot looking cars now!
Gm has never really let me down as long as I purchased cars made prior to 1972. As I have said before, I just find most autos made after '72 to be lacking in so many ways , be they domestic of foreign. I almost bought an Alfa Romeo Spyder once. I tried a Mazda M6 something orother
It went fast, rattled and took corners like a rail car
Cool, noisy and dangerous in my hands
I helped my friend master the streets of NY City in his modded Golf GTI. Bilstines crack your shock towers donchya know.. 
That German car was always needin' fixin'! We would go out and get parts in his '72 Olds Vista Cruiser
I dumped our Vibe/Matrix because I slid all over the place in it even when putting on grippier tires. It would roll backwards into traffic on icy hills. I hit a bus in this way. I drove that hill for years in icy weather and far worse. No car I owned ever did that . Even the manual transmission was no help as the right front tire would spin and no others would lock in to assist. Stupid car , at least for me. My inlaws have one and have no problems, but they stay in when it snows, it's an automatic and are retired. I work every day and have a daughter to move about safely. The Vibe gave me a bad, vibe.....
So in the HHR I went for the automatic tranny. I figure the four banger engine should be good for the 160,00 miles I have planned for it, but will likely be kinda noisey by then. Maybe not, but I find all four banger noisy and irritating. I like V8's and special sixes like my SHo, or that darn noisy leaky straight six on my '68 Satalite convertible
Put many thousands of miles on my Corvairs and Buicks over the years. Just starters and radiators got changed besides normal wear items. My Voyager was another story. Bad design on the first couple rounds of Chrysler mini vans. But it soured me on Chrysler, though they have some hot looking cars now!
Gm has never really let me down as long as I purchased cars made prior to 1972. As I have said before, I just find most autos made after '72 to be lacking in so many ways , be they domestic of foreign. I almost bought an Alfa Romeo Spyder once. I tried a Mazda M6 something orother
It went fast, rattled and took corners like a rail car Cool, noisy and dangerous in my hands I helped my friend master the streets of NY City in his modded Golf GTI. Bilstines crack your shock towers donchya know..
That German car was always needin' fixin'! We would go out and get parts in his '72 Olds Vista Cruiser I dumped our Vibe/Matrix because I slid all over the place in it even when putting on grippier tires. It would roll backwards into traffic on icy hills. I hit a bus in this way. I drove that hill for years in icy weather and far worse. No car I owned ever did that . Even the manual transmission was no help as the right front tire would spin and no others would lock in to assist. Stupid car , at least for me. My inlaws have one and have no problems, but they stay in when it snows, it's an automatic and are retired. I work every day and have a daughter to move about safely. The Vibe gave me a bad, vibe.....
So in the HHR I went for the automatic tranny. I figure the four banger engine should be good for the 160,00 miles I have planned for it, but will likely be kinda noisey by then. Maybe not, but I find all four banger noisy and irritating. I like V8's and special sixes like my SHo, or that darn noisy leaky straight six on my '68 Satalite convertible