Panel LS 2nd row seat install - is it legal in NJ
08-08-2011, 11:47 AM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: 01-10-2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 681
In NJ, my HHR is registered as a "wagon"
I was once pulled over for having lettering on my car without commercial plates by an over-zealous cop. He had the law reversed. If you have commercial plates, you must have lettering. If you have passenger plates, you can write anything you want on your car. By adding a rear seat, you may be technically breaking a law, but just try and find one cop that is clear enough on the intricasies of law that would even write the ticket.
I was once pulled over for having lettering on my car without commercial plates by an over-zealous cop. He had the law reversed. If you have commercial plates, you must have lettering. If you have passenger plates, you can write anything you want on your car. By adding a rear seat, you may be technically breaking a law, but just try and find one cop that is clear enough on the intricasies of law that would even write the ticket.
08-08-2011, 11:57 AM
#12
Deceased
Join Date: 06-30-2010
Location: Kannapolis NC
Posts: 25,739
I agree that actually getting written up for an equipment violation is unlikely, but its just something to consider when contemplating the conversion. The biggest concern that I have looking at it from the standpoint of an attorney, is the liability issues that would arise in the event of an injury accident involving rear seat passengers.
The great majority of my fellow attorneys in the world are not ambulance chasing crooks out for a quick buck, but there are a few who would see the potential for a juicy lawsuit.
The great majority of my fellow attorneys in the world are not ambulance chasing crooks out for a quick buck, but there are a few who would see the potential for a juicy lawsuit.
08-09-2011, 12:47 AM
#14
Rest In Peace
Join Date: 06-13-2010
Location: IL.
Posts: 2,301
I owned a custom convertible Fiero. Insurance did not have an issue with the vehicle, they adjusted the coverage to make sure I was covered properly. I had a 1997 BMW Z3 without rollover hoops, but I added them to the factory mounts... insurance didn't care.
As for putting in the seat, if there are mounts for the seat and seat belt, then you should be fine. Installing a seat is no different than removing and reinstalling a seat. Torque values and such... sure, follow them, but you don't contact your insurance when you remove the seat to clean under it, do you? :)
The DMV and police won't care, just talk to your insurance agent, but in most of the cases, they will tell you that they don't care. You have to remember that people add seat belts to old vehicles, they change seats, etc.... and all of these cars are covered. I wouldn't even bat an eye at installing seats if the factory mounts were used.
I am not a lawyer, so, this is only my opinion... do what you want and talk to the insurance if you are concerned. :)
As for putting in the seat, if there are mounts for the seat and seat belt, then you should be fine. Installing a seat is no different than removing and reinstalling a seat. Torque values and such... sure, follow them, but you don't contact your insurance when you remove the seat to clean under it, do you? :)
The DMV and police won't care, just talk to your insurance agent, but in most of the cases, they will tell you that they don't care. You have to remember that people add seat belts to old vehicles, they change seats, etc.... and all of these cars are covered. I wouldn't even bat an eye at installing seats if the factory mounts were used.
I am not a lawyer, so, this is only my opinion... do what you want and talk to the insurance if you are concerned. :)
The HHR was designed as a 5 passenger car to begin with. They only made some cosmetic changes to create it as a Panel.
They did Not do a redesign to make a Panel.
GM offered/marketed the Panel as a small business type delivery car and removed the rear seat for the tool bin.
GM just did not think there was a market for the Panel with a rear seat.
I installed my rear seat with Everything a windowed HHR's rear seat installation has. Everything is there in place to do so and even the bolt holes are already Tapped.
NOTHING needs to be Modified in any way to install a HHR rear seat in a HHR Panel, you just have to make Sure you get Everything for the install of it.
I recently was accussed of cutting an unmarked cop off merging from a lane that was ending. The cop had insisted I pulled out from someplace else, we went back and forth on who was right or wrong ect.
He ended up writing me a ticket for Black Fuzzy Dice on my rear view mirror, obstructing my view.
He Looked for Anything he could and my rear seat was never even a slight issue with him.
After he wrote the ticket he said we could now talk OFF the Record and still wanted to know Where I pulled out from. I think HE was daydreaming and woke up as I was merging in front of him and he got mad.
I told him about my Panel opened the hood and even showed him my rear seat, and explained the Panels did not come with them.
Still not a "legal" word from the cop about it.
99% of people and insurance agents have NO clue about the Panels seating.
Allstate did not ask me, is this a 2 seater Panel, or a 5 seater HHR?
As far as side air bags, they are an Option, not a requierment. So not all Windowed HHR's with a rear seat have them either.
Could you Maybe be held liable in the event of a crash, Maybe a Slight chance, Maybe.
I Doubt it very much, as long as you did not put a rattan love seat in back and call it a rear seat. With hillbilly rope as the seat belts.
Could an Asteroid hit Earth tomorrow, Destroying earth totally, maybe, Highly Unlikely though.
About as much of a chance as waking up today and the stock market rallying UP 2500 Points by the close of the day.
My 1955 Chevy Bel Air 2 Door Hardtop did not come with seat belts, but with todays seat belt Laws, I must Add them if I want to avoid a seat belt ticket.
Adding cheap lap belts is all that is required, No Engineers to design them for the car, just put a set in, if being pulled over click them across your lap.
Most vintage car guys that bother doing so, just drill a hole in the thin metal floor and nut and bolt the seat belt in place.
Most do Not want to drill the hole to begin with.
No need to overthink this really.
If you install a rear seat in a HHR Panel, make Sure you get everything needed for a Proper install. Don't use cheap bolts from a home center, get them from the car your getting the seat and the seat belts from. Or go to the Dealer to get them.
Full sized vans without any windows came with rear seats, and plenty were sent out to van shops and all kinds of aftermarket seating arrangements were done without anyone being sued.
The TV show Rides took a Box Truck and turned it into a gaming living room inside with built in couches and big screen TV's.
It was a beater armoured truck to begin with and was done for the guy that owns Virgin Records to showcase their new gaming line.
Just watch these Custom car shows, they do alot more that just adding a stock oem seat in the back of a car that was designed originally to have that rear seat in it to begin with.
My rear seat passengers are Just as Safe as any other windowed HHR with a rear seat without the Optional side air bags.
That's my Opinion on the subject and my rear seat is staying installed in my Panel.
08-09-2011, 04:28 AM
#15
Deceased
Join Date: 06-30-2010
Location: Kannapolis NC
Posts: 25,739
All very valid points A&P, and you are correct in that the addition of a rear seat to a panel when done correctly shouldn't cause any issues. But in a world of runaway litigation you do assume the liability involved with modifying the vehicle for additional passenger capacity. Conversion vans are all based on cargo vans, but all of the major converters have the conversions certified, because of liability and FMVSS safety standards.
Even though the HHR was constructed as a five passenger vehicle, the panel was constructed as a two passenger vehicle(as defined in FMVSS 207 & FMVSS 208), hence the rear seat is a modification plain and simple. Its a grey area and it always will be, just the same as classic cars being back converted to seat belts when they never had them or even provisions for them. Whoever told you that you had to add seat belts to your '55 was wrong, it was manufactured before the date specified in your state's vehicle code requiring seat belts, you don't have to have them and you can't be cited for not having them.
Specifically pertaining to Illinois...
Sec. 12‑603. Seat safety belts.
(a) No person shall sell any 1965 or later model motor vehicle of the first division unless the front seat of such motor vehicle is equipped with 2 sets of seat safety belts. Motorcycles are exempted from the provisions of this Section.
(b) No person shall operate any 1965 or later model motor vehicle of the first division that is titled or licensed by the Secretary of State unless the front seat of such motor vehicle is equipped with 2 sets of seat safety belts.
(b‑5) No person under the age of 18 years shall operate any motor vehicle, except a motor driven cycle or motorcycle, with more than one passenger in the front seat of the motor vehicle and no more passengers in the back seats than the number of available seat safety belts, except that each driver under the age of 18 years operating a second division vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of 8,000 pounds or less that contains only a front seat may operate the vehicle with more than one passenger in the front seat, provided that each passenger is wearing a properly adjusted and fastened seat safety belt.
(c) (Blank).
(d) The Department shall establish performance specifications for seat safety belts and for the attachment and installation thereof.
(Source: P.A. 89‑120, eff. 7‑7‑95; 90‑89, eff. 1‑1‑98; 90‑369, eff. 1‑1‑98; 90‑655, eff. 7‑30‑98.)
Even though the HHR was constructed as a five passenger vehicle, the panel was constructed as a two passenger vehicle(as defined in FMVSS 207 & FMVSS 208), hence the rear seat is a modification plain and simple. Its a grey area and it always will be, just the same as classic cars being back converted to seat belts when they never had them or even provisions for them. Whoever told you that you had to add seat belts to your '55 was wrong, it was manufactured before the date specified in your state's vehicle code requiring seat belts, you don't have to have them and you can't be cited for not having them.
Specifically pertaining to Illinois...
Sec. 12‑603. Seat safety belts.
(a) No person shall sell any 1965 or later model motor vehicle of the first division unless the front seat of such motor vehicle is equipped with 2 sets of seat safety belts. Motorcycles are exempted from the provisions of this Section.
(b) No person shall operate any 1965 or later model motor vehicle of the first division that is titled or licensed by the Secretary of State unless the front seat of such motor vehicle is equipped with 2 sets of seat safety belts.
(b‑5) No person under the age of 18 years shall operate any motor vehicle, except a motor driven cycle or motorcycle, with more than one passenger in the front seat of the motor vehicle and no more passengers in the back seats than the number of available seat safety belts, except that each driver under the age of 18 years operating a second division vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of 8,000 pounds or less that contains only a front seat may operate the vehicle with more than one passenger in the front seat, provided that each passenger is wearing a properly adjusted and fastened seat safety belt.
(c) (Blank).
(d) The Department shall establish performance specifications for seat safety belts and for the attachment and installation thereof.
(Source: P.A. 89‑120, eff. 7‑7‑95; 90‑89, eff. 1‑1‑98; 90‑369, eff. 1‑1‑98; 90‑655, eff. 7‑30‑98.)
08-09-2011, 06:29 AM
#16
Rest In Peace
Join Date: 06-13-2010
Location: IL.
Posts: 2,301
Adding or not adding seat belts in vintage cars is also a gray area.
In IL. it is a Primary law meaning they don't need any other reason to pull you over, if the cop see's your not wearing it he/she can pull you over for it alone.
Some States specify certain years of cars that are exempt, IL. does not actually have this exemption written that I am aware of.
Without seat belts in your vintage car and you have your kids in the back seat (8-15 and under 8 in a car seat belted in place) you can be ticketed, the cop see's no shoulder belt on you, they can legally pull you over.
I don't have them installed in my '55, never will while I am alive either.
IL. loves to block traffic just to do random so called seat belt checks, that and the dui's they end up with are nothing more than cash makers for them.
Here is a seat belt chart thing I found from an RV site about each states seat belt laws since they are all different.
It's just common knowledge here in IL. that if you want no contact with the police, let that shoulder belt be seen, as we all know, cops make up their own rules (laws) out on the roads.
http://www.rvhelpdesk.com/seatbelt-laws.html
The Panel is constructed as a 5 passenger car, it's just that it was only offered as a 2 seater, by choice of GM Options. They did not redesign it, they took out a rear seat the HHR has and added a plastic toolbox in its place, put a few plastic covers over the seat belt bolt openings in the same interior panels a windowed HHR has and molded a smooth faced rear door interior panel and tossed a rear door without glass on it.
The slim chance and I mean Very Slim chance of some kind of litigation because someone added a rear seat to a car that actually uses the rear seat from the same car with rear doors with glass is silly.
As I said before, cars and trucks are Customized all the time and with far less of an oem approach and there are hundreds of thousands of such cars and trucks out on the roads and no one has gone on suing about it.
Heck just look at some of the "rat rods" being done and legally out on the roads.
Some of those are put together half a**ed at Best, and are Legal.
Adding a Stock rear seat, and the seat belts, to a car that was first made to actually have one, is in my opinion an extremely low risk endeavor.
I Personally went and took out the rear seat from an '09 HHR and Everything that was needed to do the swap 100% as oem had it to begin with.
I'd ride in that rear seat and I trust my experience as a former body man that it is as Safe as the windowed HHR's with a rear seat. Heck, Safer as there is no glass to shatter into someones eye from the rear door.
If I didn't, I would Not allow my kids to sit in back.
I did alot of Custom work in body shops 40-60 hours a week for 12 years and not once was any shop sued for custom stuff done. And some shops and installers do some pretty shady things when it comes to custom cars stuff.
Or even just every day cars in those shops.
Your a Lawyer yourself right? So of course you see it from your point of view as one.
If I added windowed rear doors on my Panel, i'd have an AA5 Optioned HHR.
(without adding a rear seat even)
Then I guess you could say, If you Added Windowed rear doors to your Panel, and a piece of Glass from that added Door, cuts someone inside or outside of the car, you are liable, because that glass did Not belong on that car to begin with. You may well be "liable" like you would be for any accident that was your fault, but your insurance is gonna cover you without question.
It gets pretty petty and just plain silly. Your insurance is gonna cover you if you have decent full coverage.
As Allstate says, Mayhem is Everywhere.
99.9999% of car accidents with damage gets fixed or a total loss and checks are paid without some major investigation.
Did they or didn't they, were they or werent they? That would be like saying, His brake shoes were 1/2 worn, so we will only cover Half of the accident.
OMG that car had a Recall and the owner did not know, so we will not cover him, Not gonna happen.
In IL. it is a Primary law meaning they don't need any other reason to pull you over, if the cop see's your not wearing it he/she can pull you over for it alone.
Some States specify certain years of cars that are exempt, IL. does not actually have this exemption written that I am aware of.
Without seat belts in your vintage car and you have your kids in the back seat (8-15 and under 8 in a car seat belted in place) you can be ticketed, the cop see's no shoulder belt on you, they can legally pull you over.
I don't have them installed in my '55, never will while I am alive either.
IL. loves to block traffic just to do random so called seat belt checks, that and the dui's they end up with are nothing more than cash makers for them.
Here is a seat belt chart thing I found from an RV site about each states seat belt laws since they are all different.
It's just common knowledge here in IL. that if you want no contact with the police, let that shoulder belt be seen, as we all know, cops make up their own rules (laws) out on the roads.
http://www.rvhelpdesk.com/seatbelt-laws.html
The Panel is constructed as a 5 passenger car, it's just that it was only offered as a 2 seater, by choice of GM Options. They did not redesign it, they took out a rear seat the HHR has and added a plastic toolbox in its place, put a few plastic covers over the seat belt bolt openings in the same interior panels a windowed HHR has and molded a smooth faced rear door interior panel and tossed a rear door without glass on it.
The slim chance and I mean Very Slim chance of some kind of litigation because someone added a rear seat to a car that actually uses the rear seat from the same car with rear doors with glass is silly.
As I said before, cars and trucks are Customized all the time and with far less of an oem approach and there are hundreds of thousands of such cars and trucks out on the roads and no one has gone on suing about it.
Heck just look at some of the "rat rods" being done and legally out on the roads.
Some of those are put together half a**ed at Best, and are Legal.
Adding a Stock rear seat, and the seat belts, to a car that was first made to actually have one, is in my opinion an extremely low risk endeavor.
I Personally went and took out the rear seat from an '09 HHR and Everything that was needed to do the swap 100% as oem had it to begin with.
I'd ride in that rear seat and I trust my experience as a former body man that it is as Safe as the windowed HHR's with a rear seat. Heck, Safer as there is no glass to shatter into someones eye from the rear door.
If I didn't, I would Not allow my kids to sit in back.
I did alot of Custom work in body shops 40-60 hours a week for 12 years and not once was any shop sued for custom stuff done. And some shops and installers do some pretty shady things when it comes to custom cars stuff.
Or even just every day cars in those shops.
Your a Lawyer yourself right? So of course you see it from your point of view as one.
If I added windowed rear doors on my Panel, i'd have an AA5 Optioned HHR.
(without adding a rear seat even)
Then I guess you could say, If you Added Windowed rear doors to your Panel, and a piece of Glass from that added Door, cuts someone inside or outside of the car, you are liable, because that glass did Not belong on that car to begin with. You may well be "liable" like you would be for any accident that was your fault, but your insurance is gonna cover you without question.
It gets pretty petty and just plain silly. Your insurance is gonna cover you if you have decent full coverage.
As Allstate says, Mayhem is Everywhere.
99.9999% of car accidents with damage gets fixed or a total loss and checks are paid without some major investigation.
Did they or didn't they, were they or werent they? That would be like saying, His brake shoes were 1/2 worn, so we will only cover Half of the accident.
OMG that car had a Recall and the owner did not know, so we will not cover him, Not gonna happen.
08-09-2011, 11:38 AM
#17
Deceased
Join Date: 06-30-2010
Location: Kannapolis NC
Posts: 25,739
North Carolina is a state where we have a law requiring seat belt use, its also a primary offense, but the police here have a handy list in their vehicle stating which model years are exempt(experienced officers use common sense). So if they pull you over, as one slightly over zealous officer did last year in my '37, a quick check of the list left him red faced and apologizing for the error. Its possible that it will happen someday when I have either the '67 or the '61 out too, both are not equipped with shoulder belts from the factory, and I have no intention of changing that.
You are right A&P that I do look at things from the prospective of a lawyer, can't help it. Once you make it through law school and pass the Bar exam, you always look at things from a legal viewpoint, drives your wife nuts among other things.
I hate to come off sounding like the voice of doom at times. But when I see something that might leave a member here jammed up legally, I have to put in my two cents as long as I don't violate the constraints placed on me by the Bar. Unless someone is my client, I can only speak in generalities, and give pointers...not specific legal advice.
You are right A&P that I do look at things from the prospective of a lawyer, can't help it. Once you make it through law school and pass the Bar exam, you always look at things from a legal viewpoint, drives your wife nuts among other things.
I hate to come off sounding like the voice of doom at times. But when I see something that might leave a member here jammed up legally, I have to put in my two cents as long as I don't violate the constraints placed on me by the Bar. Unless someone is my client, I can only speak in generalities, and give pointers...not specific legal advice.
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