Would you like to help GM? Here's how!
11-16-2008, 02:10 PM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-08-2008
Location: United States of Texas
Posts: 505
So true so true
HyperV6, You are right about more than you know. WW2 was fought and won by every American. They all stood together and made sacrifices to win the war and move on. Everything was rationed and everyone did something to support the war. Now less than 1% of Americans are dong all of the fighting and protecting our American way of life yet everyone wants instant results.
WW111 is about money and not bombs. China is taking all of our jobs (money) and they are also buying up much of our stock. They have loaned America huge amounts of money so now in many ways they own us.
I also agree that tossing out all of the upper managment is not the answer. Yes, they like most all of the union people are overpaid for what they do lets focus on the real problem. Where did the jobs go?
ChevyMGR, I am all for anything that helps all American manufacturors and not just GM. I remember when cars were made 100% in America by Americans and we were proud of it. Nobody can do anything better than the American worker but we can not compete on the same level because of money.
So I do not know what the answer is but I definatly do not think it would be good for GM, Ford or anyone else to go out of business. With the current American pay rates and Chinese pay scales I think the future does not look good for America at all. With China having billions of people and America having right at 300 million we can not compete on an equal basis for those jobs.
WW111 is about money and not bombs. China is taking all of our jobs (money) and they are also buying up much of our stock. They have loaned America huge amounts of money so now in many ways they own us.
I also agree that tossing out all of the upper managment is not the answer. Yes, they like most all of the union people are overpaid for what they do lets focus on the real problem. Where did the jobs go?
ChevyMGR, I am all for anything that helps all American manufacturors and not just GM. I remember when cars were made 100% in America by Americans and we were proud of it. Nobody can do anything better than the American worker but we can not compete on the same level because of money.
So I do not know what the answer is but I definatly do not think it would be good for GM, Ford or anyone else to go out of business. With the current American pay rates and Chinese pay scales I think the future does not look good for America at all. With China having billions of people and America having right at 300 million we can not compete on an equal basis for those jobs.
11-16-2008, 03:49 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: 02-19-2008
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Posts: 129
Trade with China is a double-edged sword. Without Chinese manufacturing,
everything we buy would cost a lot more. Protectionism (i.e. quota limits or tariffs) would simply raise all the prices, effectively resulting in a large paycut for everyone in the nation. In essence, we've been living high on the hog off the backs of the Chinese. I imagine there are some workers there who are resentful of us.
If the Big 3 go under, it will initially kill a lot a jobs, but business will start booming for the other foreign car companies (the Big 3 currently hold ~60% of the U.S. market share...all those consumers will have to buy somewhere) and the foreign car companies' American plants will start having to hire more people to keep up with the new demand. It would essentially result in a shift of the jobs from the areas around the current Big 3 plants to the areas around all the Toyota, Honda, etc. plants in the nation. New restaurants, shops, etc. will spring up in surrounding areas as new workers move in. (Eventually those new workers will unionize and bankrupt those companies and possibly allow new American companies to form, but I digress).
A bailout would deny jobs to people who live in those areas. Of course, no one ever thinks of that or cares because those jobs don't currently exist.
Nevertheless, the initial pain of the Big 3 going under is scary.
On a side note I'd like to add that, contrary to what most people think, I think the Big 3 must be run pretty well. After all, they've been able to compete for decades while paying 3 times more (if you include benefits, holiday pay, jobs bank, etc.) to their employees. I still prefer the Malibu or the Aura to either the Camry or the Accord and the Malibu/Aura cost less.
everything we buy would cost a lot more. Protectionism (i.e. quota limits or tariffs) would simply raise all the prices, effectively resulting in a large paycut for everyone in the nation. In essence, we've been living high on the hog off the backs of the Chinese. I imagine there are some workers there who are resentful of us.
If the Big 3 go under, it will initially kill a lot a jobs, but business will start booming for the other foreign car companies (the Big 3 currently hold ~60% of the U.S. market share...all those consumers will have to buy somewhere) and the foreign car companies' American plants will start having to hire more people to keep up with the new demand. It would essentially result in a shift of the jobs from the areas around the current Big 3 plants to the areas around all the Toyota, Honda, etc. plants in the nation. New restaurants, shops, etc. will spring up in surrounding areas as new workers move in. (Eventually those new workers will unionize and bankrupt those companies and possibly allow new American companies to form, but I digress).
A bailout would deny jobs to people who live in those areas. Of course, no one ever thinks of that or cares because those jobs don't currently exist.
Nevertheless, the initial pain of the Big 3 going under is scary.
On a side note I'd like to add that, contrary to what most people think, I think the Big 3 must be run pretty well. After all, they've been able to compete for decades while paying 3 times more (if you include benefits, holiday pay, jobs bank, etc.) to their employees. I still prefer the Malibu or the Aura to either the Camry or the Accord and the Malibu/Aura cost less.
11-16-2008, 04:33 PM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: 04-11-2006
Location: Eufaula, Oklahoma
Posts: 166
help the big 3 ?
I love the unions, I have been on both sides of the fence.
Worker, management, shop steward and organizer.
I am retired with a small mom and pop business. If I employed any other workers, they would be union workers. However, .
I say that giving the big three another $25 B that’s a "B" for billion dollars, for a total of $50 Billon Dollars would be poor judgment.
The original $25 Billion dollars was to retool for fuel efficient cars. Now they are asking for an additional $25 Billion Dollars to help them thru the next few months. It should last 3 to 4 months. Then what ?
It is the same song and dance. All upper management retains their “Salaries, Christmas Bonus’s (I hope I did not offend the far left by saying Christmas instead of Holiday), and Golden Umbrellas‘”.
The Unions were formed to protect the workers from the company’s taking advantage of them. The Union has caused the pendulum to swing in the other direction. One of the largest expense to the company right now is the paid health care for retired workers for life.
GM states they LOOSE $1000.00 per unit sold, this is do to the benefits, salaries, golden umbrellas, and perks for the workers and retired workers 30 years plus.
The worker at GM makes $58.00 per hour ! Do you make $58.00 per hour ?
Gm will not, I repeat, Will not go out of business. No will the other two.
They will reorganize. They will restructure, they will become a leaner company and the labor union will be forced to make concessions along with the company. Concessions that both unions and management are not willing to make at this time.
Thats my .03 cents
Worker, management, shop steward and organizer.
I am retired with a small mom and pop business. If I employed any other workers, they would be union workers. However, .
I say that giving the big three another $25 B that’s a "B" for billion dollars, for a total of $50 Billon Dollars would be poor judgment.
The original $25 Billion dollars was to retool for fuel efficient cars. Now they are asking for an additional $25 Billion Dollars to help them thru the next few months. It should last 3 to 4 months. Then what ?
It is the same song and dance. All upper management retains their “Salaries, Christmas Bonus’s (I hope I did not offend the far left by saying Christmas instead of Holiday), and Golden Umbrellas‘”.
The Unions were formed to protect the workers from the company’s taking advantage of them. The Union has caused the pendulum to swing in the other direction. One of the largest expense to the company right now is the paid health care for retired workers for life.
GM states they LOOSE $1000.00 per unit sold, this is do to the benefits, salaries, golden umbrellas, and perks for the workers and retired workers 30 years plus.
The worker at GM makes $58.00 per hour ! Do you make $58.00 per hour ?
Gm will not, I repeat, Will not go out of business. No will the other two.
They will reorganize. They will restructure, they will become a leaner company and the labor union will be forced to make concessions along with the company. Concessions that both unions and management are not willing to make at this time.
Thats my .03 cents
11-16-2008, 05:50 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
The $25 Billion would last anywhere depending on the economy 1-4 years not 3-4 months.
Second regardless of the money paid to the top brass the companies would still be in trouble even if they took no pay. The 12 million some make is a drop in the bucket to the problems they have. There is a lot of differance between $1,000,000 and $1,000,000,000 dolars.
People should earn a fair wage for what they do. If they do not feel they are paid enough get a degree and get a better job.
One thing some fail to remember is companies are there to make a profit they are not their to just give you a job. CEO's are required to give them a return and if they don't they are out.
Now if they are not making money they should not be paid a bonus unless there is a good reason such as turning around a troubled company that may take a couple years to improve. They should be judged on their efforts and progess. That is the shareholders to decide.
Don't say GM will never go away. I once thought that too but now I know better.
Packard once was one of the greatest car companies in the world and check what happend to them.
If rome can fall so can GM.
Robert Kegan the CEO of Goodyear is a great example of what a good CEO can do with a company that nearly failed. They still have to recover some yet but Goodyear is a leaner and stronger company even in these times. They still beat market expectations.
This whole Union/Managment argument is like Republican/Democrat There is good and bad on both sides. So much more could be accmplished if they would work to together more.
GM can't sell cars now. If they go bankrupt will will buy them then? Bankruptcy is not a good encentive to get someone to plunk down $30,000 on a car they may not be able to et fixed in a year or two.
Second regardless of the money paid to the top brass the companies would still be in trouble even if they took no pay. The 12 million some make is a drop in the bucket to the problems they have. There is a lot of differance between $1,000,000 and $1,000,000,000 dolars.
People should earn a fair wage for what they do. If they do not feel they are paid enough get a degree and get a better job.
One thing some fail to remember is companies are there to make a profit they are not their to just give you a job. CEO's are required to give them a return and if they don't they are out.
Now if they are not making money they should not be paid a bonus unless there is a good reason such as turning around a troubled company that may take a couple years to improve. They should be judged on their efforts and progess. That is the shareholders to decide.
Don't say GM will never go away. I once thought that too but now I know better.
Packard once was one of the greatest car companies in the world and check what happend to them.
If rome can fall so can GM.
Robert Kegan the CEO of Goodyear is a great example of what a good CEO can do with a company that nearly failed. They still have to recover some yet but Goodyear is a leaner and stronger company even in these times. They still beat market expectations.
This whole Union/Managment argument is like Republican/Democrat There is good and bad on both sides. So much more could be accmplished if they would work to together more.
GM can't sell cars now. If they go bankrupt will will buy them then? Bankruptcy is not a good encentive to get someone to plunk down $30,000 on a car they may not be able to et fixed in a year or two.
11-16-2008, 06:11 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-09-2008
Location: in my own little world
Posts: 416
sorry I have read some of these posts and did not agree with a lot that was written I am sure it was well thought out. please be careful where blame is placed I think all share in the blame.
11-16-2008, 07:39 PM
#37
Member
Join Date: 04-27-2008
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 59
The sad thing is that GM is a victim in all of this. The root of the problem is the shady lending practices of the banks in the housing market. Now no one can get a loan not for a house or a car.
I do believe they need to be bailed out. I also think they need an over seeing body to turn this ongoing problem around.
I do believe they need to be bailed out. I also think they need an over seeing body to turn this ongoing problem around.
11-16-2008, 09:29 PM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-08-2008
Location: United States of Texas
Posts: 505
Well not quite
"Trade with China is a double-edged sword. Without Chinese manufacturing,
everything we buy would cost a lot more. Protectionism (i.e. quota limits or tariffs) would simply raise all the prices, effectively resulting in a large paycut for everyone in the nation. In essence, we've been living high on the hog off the backs of the Chinese. I imagine there are some workers there who are resentful of us."
Well I do agree that due to China we are able to buy things at a lower cost than before. The problem is that it at the cost of American jobs. As a business owner I know it extremely difficult to compete. There is more to it than just buying American. If you buy American you are paying payroll taxes, workmans comp, insurance, social security and therefore you are supporting America. If you buy Chinese then they get a free ride on all of those things that come out of your check before you ever get it. There should atleast be a tariff or tax on all imported stuff to cover for those costs. Once again we are not playing on a level feild in any sense of the word and it is killing the American economy. We have already discussed pay differences and how much of an unlevel playing feild that is.
I am all for the who ever produces the best product at the best price gets the sale but it needs to be atleast CLOSE to being level!
I think a good way to handle it though it will never happen is to eliminate the IRS and just have a sales tax. That way the people who make a lot of money under the table in cash such as topless dancers and drug dealers still pay taxes when they spend money. Also it would not matter as much where it was made if taxes were collected equally between them. How much does all of the crap that comes from China right now do to help our Social Security, workmans comp and country in general? How much does it hurt them when more Americans loose their jobs?
everything we buy would cost a lot more. Protectionism (i.e. quota limits or tariffs) would simply raise all the prices, effectively resulting in a large paycut for everyone in the nation. In essence, we've been living high on the hog off the backs of the Chinese. I imagine there are some workers there who are resentful of us."
Well I do agree that due to China we are able to buy things at a lower cost than before. The problem is that it at the cost of American jobs. As a business owner I know it extremely difficult to compete. There is more to it than just buying American. If you buy American you are paying payroll taxes, workmans comp, insurance, social security and therefore you are supporting America. If you buy Chinese then they get a free ride on all of those things that come out of your check before you ever get it. There should atleast be a tariff or tax on all imported stuff to cover for those costs. Once again we are not playing on a level feild in any sense of the word and it is killing the American economy. We have already discussed pay differences and how much of an unlevel playing feild that is.
I am all for the who ever produces the best product at the best price gets the sale but it needs to be atleast CLOSE to being level!
I think a good way to handle it though it will never happen is to eliminate the IRS and just have a sales tax. That way the people who make a lot of money under the table in cash such as topless dancers and drug dealers still pay taxes when they spend money. Also it would not matter as much where it was made if taxes were collected equally between them. How much does all of the crap that comes from China right now do to help our Social Security, workmans comp and country in general? How much does it hurt them when more Americans loose their jobs?