GM Posts Record Profits for 2011
02-23-2012, 04:42 PM
#21
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Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
russruth.........
Very well written and a good analysis, I commend you (even though I may not fully agree with a couple of issues).
I also see you are a "follower" of Newt Gingrich (which doesn't make you a bad person).
hyper......you still have it wrong and I think it's important to understand this, for the sake of arguments. The government is holding 26.5%...not 61%....of GM stock They did hold 61% but sold roughly 35% over the last year. Now, we don't know what value was given to the stock (maybe several) at the time of the "loan"..... usually in this type of deal, less than market value, but I would hope the Government recognized SOME profit from the sale...for the tax payers sake.
Because GM is a registered stock with the SEC, you can find this information on any good financial website.
Very well written and a good analysis, I commend you (even though I may not fully agree with a couple of issues).
I also see you are a "follower" of Newt Gingrich (which doesn't make you a bad person).
hyper......you still have it wrong and I think it's important to understand this, for the sake of arguments. The government is holding 26.5%...not 61%....of GM stock They did hold 61% but sold roughly 35% over the last year. Now, we don't know what value was given to the stock (maybe several) at the time of the "loan"..... usually in this type of deal, less than market value, but I would hope the Government recognized SOME profit from the sale...for the tax payers sake.
Because GM is a registered stock with the SEC, you can find this information on any good financial website.
No matter the numbers the sooner the US goverment and Canadian Goverment sell of their stake the better it will be for GM.
As of now they are still a political ping pong ball that I find unfair but it is part of the deal. I find it sad a conservitive like Lutz has to defend GM from the conservitive media.
The things people believe like Obama is telling them what kind of cars to build etc. While I don't approve of Obama I am fair enough to understand he and his admin has had only has imput on product with the goverment regs they have approved. These are the same rules for all of them.
While I did have old numbers the rest of what I said I will stand by.
The part of the UAW I do not trust is they are now a tool of the Democratic party. They plan to protest for the 99% this spring. I find it funny as many of the UAW leaders are in the so called evil one percent as are many of the Democratic leaders. I expect this to be just another wacko parade that will continue to undermine our country.
There are good and bad on both sides and it is a shame the worst of each are mostly the ones that are being heard.
02-24-2012, 11:49 AM
#22
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Join Date: 11-08-2009
Location: Los Angeles, Dallas, New York
Posts: 220
My point is the bailouts were not a business decision, but a political one.
Would we have lost 1 million jobs? That's debatable because if there is a market to sell domestic product then someone would fill that void and European and Japanese car companies are expanding production in America all the time.
From my heart I would hate to see GM disappear. From my pocketbook, I don't believe any company is too big to fail.
This million job thing is mentioned like it's a religion, but this country shed 10 million jobs and by most analysts we have 17 to 27 million underemployed and probably another 2 million that just gave up.
That doesn't include the tens of millions of self employed that aren't listed on any government census.
Adding another million or so from GM and their suppliers would not have moved the needle and I doubt if it would have been a million jobs. What it would have done is marginalize the unions, which the current administration cannot offend.
Large institutions love to scream the sky is falling to get people to open their wallets. It worked with the banks, it worked with the auto companies.
Now had this been a business decision, GM still could have been saved and there would have been investors, probably from overseas, but hey, a lot of U.S. investment comes from overseas. It's foolish not to take their money and as it adds wealth and tax dollars in the U.S.
Let's face it Chrysler was taken over by Daimler and no one batted an eye, now they are given to an Italian company and once again nobody notices. Had it been a Chinese company that bought Chrysler it would have made headline news for months, though chinese investment in bonds is what helped fuel tarp and other government programs, so where is the line drawn?
The DOE has given 50 million to Fiskar who makes a few expensive luxury cars and is foreign owned and nobody even notices, though 50 million isn't much when your dropping trillions.
The money from the auto bailout could have been used towards the real issue of the economic problem, loss of housing equity.
Most Homeowners have their savings (or better put personal wealth) in their homes and rather than dump money into a politically motivated mismanaged auto company. They could have used our tax dollars in a thousand ways that would have really improved the overall economy. Just balancing the budget or putting a moratorium on regulations would have been a huge start, backstopping the bank deposits rather than paying money to the bankers would have been a lot more logical.
As far as politics, I'm almost agnostic. Don't think much of anyone who has made their living off working people. . . without working. Newt? No, not for me, he's a K street guy that has the morality of a siding salesman.
Me, I'm a small business owner and like most I work harder and more hours than ever, invest back into my company and community and don't get or expect anything from government . . . other than they get out of the way and stop charging me for other peoples mistakes.
IMO
Would we have lost 1 million jobs? That's debatable because if there is a market to sell domestic product then someone would fill that void and European and Japanese car companies are expanding production in America all the time.
From my heart I would hate to see GM disappear. From my pocketbook, I don't believe any company is too big to fail.
This million job thing is mentioned like it's a religion, but this country shed 10 million jobs and by most analysts we have 17 to 27 million underemployed and probably another 2 million that just gave up.
That doesn't include the tens of millions of self employed that aren't listed on any government census.
Adding another million or so from GM and their suppliers would not have moved the needle and I doubt if it would have been a million jobs. What it would have done is marginalize the unions, which the current administration cannot offend.
Large institutions love to scream the sky is falling to get people to open their wallets. It worked with the banks, it worked with the auto companies.
Now had this been a business decision, GM still could have been saved and there would have been investors, probably from overseas, but hey, a lot of U.S. investment comes from overseas. It's foolish not to take their money and as it adds wealth and tax dollars in the U.S.
Let's face it Chrysler was taken over by Daimler and no one batted an eye, now they are given to an Italian company and once again nobody notices. Had it been a Chinese company that bought Chrysler it would have made headline news for months, though chinese investment in bonds is what helped fuel tarp and other government programs, so where is the line drawn?
The DOE has given 50 million to Fiskar who makes a few expensive luxury cars and is foreign owned and nobody even notices, though 50 million isn't much when your dropping trillions.
The money from the auto bailout could have been used towards the real issue of the economic problem, loss of housing equity.
Most Homeowners have their savings (or better put personal wealth) in their homes and rather than dump money into a politically motivated mismanaged auto company. They could have used our tax dollars in a thousand ways that would have really improved the overall economy. Just balancing the budget or putting a moratorium on regulations would have been a huge start, backstopping the bank deposits rather than paying money to the bankers would have been a lot more logical.
As far as politics, I'm almost agnostic. Don't think much of anyone who has made their living off working people. . . without working. Newt? No, not for me, he's a K street guy that has the morality of a siding salesman.
Me, I'm a small business owner and like most I work harder and more hours than ever, invest back into my company and community and don't get or expect anything from government . . . other than they get out of the way and stop charging me for other peoples mistakes.
IMO
02-24-2012, 05:43 PM
#23
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Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
Russ the bailouts were a economic decision, but that has become a political one.
I see first hand here in the midwest where entire cities are devastated with the loss of just one plant. If GM and Chysler had closed each and ever plant the effects would have been worse and more wide spread than a tornado out break.
Then you add in the many machine shops and other suppliers in the areas of the plants. Many provide right on time delivery of parts that would have no plants to deliver too if they were shut down.
Add to the fact few of the 4N companies would ever locate in any of the cities where these plants were. First they would want to build new plants and also they would avoid any area that has a large Union base. This is now why the Govenors of Indiana, Ohio and other states are working to get the right to work laws in place. They ave a hard time getting new MFG to areas like Cleveland and Youngstown as these folks here jump when a union says jump. Or in this case strike.
I do agree with your principals on most things here. The Democrates and Unions are joined at the hip. The Democates have been bought and paid for my many Unions and they are willing to do their dirty work for kick backs for their large finacial and physical support. Talk about special interest.
I also think about anyone that is suited for President is too smart to run and is in the private sector making more with less risk.
The fact remains the Auto industry in this country is a large keystone to our economy. Also it is a key to our national security if anyone knows how much they did in past world wars. The fact is if no matter who was in office they would have done something to try to preserve the Auto MFG at the time this went down. The Economy was so fragile at that time it would have really made thing much worse much faster. I just wish both sides would stop the political football here and start working to cut spending in this country in areas where waste is much more worse than any bail out. Like the tax deal Obama wanted here. He was against it when it was Bush's and now he is for it but has done nothing to fund it or the Social Security fund it is no longer paying into.
The next deal will be the UAW supporting the so called 99% for the Democrates in this election year. This will be the next Occupy Wall Street deal that the Democrates hope does not spin out of control like the first attempt.
Get tired of the demonizing of the rich. THey are not all evil and most started with nothing and made something of themselves by hard work and risk and made money doing so. As far as I am concerned they own me nothing and more power to them if they made it honestly.
I work for a man who started our company in his spare bedroom and we are now a international company that make a lot of money that supports many employees. We also are a key to a local towns support. He is a modest man who lives comfortable and supports his employees as well a host of charities. He remains private in his affairs and seeks no lime light for what he does. He is only one of many I know similar to him. They are all the so called evil one percenters that some try to make out as not doing their share. The truth is we try to hire more workers but often find it hard to get people who can pass a drug test, background test or even a simple intelligence test.
It is time to change the social behavior of people and have them step up their ethics and standard. Trash in trash out is what we are getting anymore. Most today are sheep and just vote to whom ever will give them the most and not fix our country.
I agree with the fact greed in this country is what is making us fail. But the greed is not just some of the 1% but is with every level in this country.
I am tired of all this and if anyone is not happy with their station in life then go out and work to change it. The Asian imigrants from the 70's that came to this country after the war with nothing but the shirts on their backs have done well to show that anyone can make it in this country if you are willing to work for it. This is often why they are attacked in some of the riots like in LA.
There is no sub for hard work and education. Both are up to each and everyone of us.
Sorry for the rant but I got on a roll and I am watching the news. LOL!
I see first hand here in the midwest where entire cities are devastated with the loss of just one plant. If GM and Chysler had closed each and ever plant the effects would have been worse and more wide spread than a tornado out break.
Then you add in the many machine shops and other suppliers in the areas of the plants. Many provide right on time delivery of parts that would have no plants to deliver too if they were shut down.
Add to the fact few of the 4N companies would ever locate in any of the cities where these plants were. First they would want to build new plants and also they would avoid any area that has a large Union base. This is now why the Govenors of Indiana, Ohio and other states are working to get the right to work laws in place. They ave a hard time getting new MFG to areas like Cleveland and Youngstown as these folks here jump when a union says jump. Or in this case strike.
I do agree with your principals on most things here. The Democrates and Unions are joined at the hip. The Democates have been bought and paid for my many Unions and they are willing to do their dirty work for kick backs for their large finacial and physical support. Talk about special interest.
I also think about anyone that is suited for President is too smart to run and is in the private sector making more with less risk.
The fact remains the Auto industry in this country is a large keystone to our economy. Also it is a key to our national security if anyone knows how much they did in past world wars. The fact is if no matter who was in office they would have done something to try to preserve the Auto MFG at the time this went down. The Economy was so fragile at that time it would have really made thing much worse much faster. I just wish both sides would stop the political football here and start working to cut spending in this country in areas where waste is much more worse than any bail out. Like the tax deal Obama wanted here. He was against it when it was Bush's and now he is for it but has done nothing to fund it or the Social Security fund it is no longer paying into.
The next deal will be the UAW supporting the so called 99% for the Democrates in this election year. This will be the next Occupy Wall Street deal that the Democrates hope does not spin out of control like the first attempt.
Get tired of the demonizing of the rich. THey are not all evil and most started with nothing and made something of themselves by hard work and risk and made money doing so. As far as I am concerned they own me nothing and more power to them if they made it honestly.
I work for a man who started our company in his spare bedroom and we are now a international company that make a lot of money that supports many employees. We also are a key to a local towns support. He is a modest man who lives comfortable and supports his employees as well a host of charities. He remains private in his affairs and seeks no lime light for what he does. He is only one of many I know similar to him. They are all the so called evil one percenters that some try to make out as not doing their share. The truth is we try to hire more workers but often find it hard to get people who can pass a drug test, background test or even a simple intelligence test.
It is time to change the social behavior of people and have them step up their ethics and standard. Trash in trash out is what we are getting anymore. Most today are sheep and just vote to whom ever will give them the most and not fix our country.
I agree with the fact greed in this country is what is making us fail. But the greed is not just some of the 1% but is with every level in this country.
I am tired of all this and if anyone is not happy with their station in life then go out and work to change it. The Asian imigrants from the 70's that came to this country after the war with nothing but the shirts on their backs have done well to show that anyone can make it in this country if you are willing to work for it. This is often why they are attacked in some of the riots like in LA.
There is no sub for hard work and education. Both are up to each and everyone of us.
Sorry for the rant but I got on a roll and I am watching the news. LOL!
02-25-2012, 02:33 AM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: 11-08-2009
Location: Los Angeles, Dallas, New York
Posts: 220
hyper,
Like you I agree on some points, other than the bailouts. I know enough about finance to understand there were ways to structure the american auto industry without over burdening the taxpayer. The problem is the Unions would have to walk from the table, instead of getting 1/4 of the two companies.
Regardless . . .
I don't want to see any hard working person who wants and needs a job out of work, anywhere in the world.
Work empowers and gives us purpose.
The Unions, I have absolutely no sympathy for. I battle them monthly, on talent fees which is kind of insane because most of our rates we pay are past their asking union scale. The worst part is they sell their members down the river to the large studios without blinking.
I also have seen the devastation this economic mess has done to most of the country, as I travel continually, but rest assured the upper midwest is not the only place it happens. Shops are boarded up everywhere from LA to Dallas, to New York.
I'm in the film/advertising industry and blocks of editorial, studios and effects houses have dried up and blown away. Literally blocks . . . and recently one of the world's best special effects houses closed last year with 36 projects on hand because none of them paid enough to keep the doors open.
Imagine building the world's best company and having tons of work and you still have to close your doors because taxes, over regulation, outsourcing to government subsided companies in England and India have made your profession non profitable.
The interview I read from the owner was heartbreaking and once again, he never asked for a thing, other than a level playing field.
The difference between this industry and cars is there are no government breaks for small business, just connected business and let's be honest . . . general motors wasn't close to being the world's best car company when the bailouts started.
My wife and I started our business with zero dollars (honestly) and we are now in this administration's 1%, though their view of 1% seems to go lower each hour. It amazes me that our taxes and government fees are higher than our income and next year will even be higher.
But this is the difference between small business and the car companies. From top to bottom nobody in the UAW will work 18 hour days, 6 days a week without overtime and we do it regularly to keep our business moving. We don't have guaranteed pensions, we pay our own healthcare premiums which have almost doubled in the last 18 months, and whether anyone thinks my industry is as important as the car industry, then try turning on your TV to a blank screen, or opening up a magazine with just a few headlines. There is more to life than just screwing on fenders, or designing sun roofs that rattle.
Still, I don't believe government should pick and chose, because it's never right, never fair. Is it ok to save GM which had some of the worst management in the world and then overtax other industries to pay for it? Is it ok to save a million jobs in the swing states, because these states refuse to drop the unions and work competitively, while 10 to 15 million americans go unemployed? No I don't think so.
On a side note, I currently own RED cinema cameras, completely designed in America, mostly made in America, with a goal to be wholly made in America. The owner is Jim Jannard that previously owned Oakley and from start up, with no government assistance in 5 years he's gone from zero to owning the cinema camera industry.
Since they are privately owned they do not report earnings but most estimates put them close to a billion dollars of sales in their first few years, this for a very down, depressed industry that doesn't sell to consumers. Why does RED cameras have success? They keep the government as far away from them as possible and they work damn hard.
Oh yea, they also don't have union labor and overpaid management that get's million dollar severance pay when they fail and have to leave.
In regards to GM and any defense spending, America is a lot different today than it was at the start of WWII. Then we were 18th in the world in military power and had no real defense industry, so GM, Ford and all manufacturers had to change plans and make planes, troop carriers and boats. Today, that is not a requirement as the military/industrial industry is more than covered.
IMO
Like you I agree on some points, other than the bailouts. I know enough about finance to understand there were ways to structure the american auto industry without over burdening the taxpayer. The problem is the Unions would have to walk from the table, instead of getting 1/4 of the two companies.
Regardless . . .
I don't want to see any hard working person who wants and needs a job out of work, anywhere in the world.
Work empowers and gives us purpose.
The Unions, I have absolutely no sympathy for. I battle them monthly, on talent fees which is kind of insane because most of our rates we pay are past their asking union scale. The worst part is they sell their members down the river to the large studios without blinking.
I also have seen the devastation this economic mess has done to most of the country, as I travel continually, but rest assured the upper midwest is not the only place it happens. Shops are boarded up everywhere from LA to Dallas, to New York.
I'm in the film/advertising industry and blocks of editorial, studios and effects houses have dried up and blown away. Literally blocks . . . and recently one of the world's best special effects houses closed last year with 36 projects on hand because none of them paid enough to keep the doors open.
Imagine building the world's best company and having tons of work and you still have to close your doors because taxes, over regulation, outsourcing to government subsided companies in England and India have made your profession non profitable.
The interview I read from the owner was heartbreaking and once again, he never asked for a thing, other than a level playing field.
The difference between this industry and cars is there are no government breaks for small business, just connected business and let's be honest . . . general motors wasn't close to being the world's best car company when the bailouts started.
My wife and I started our business with zero dollars (honestly) and we are now in this administration's 1%, though their view of 1% seems to go lower each hour. It amazes me that our taxes and government fees are higher than our income and next year will even be higher.
But this is the difference between small business and the car companies. From top to bottom nobody in the UAW will work 18 hour days, 6 days a week without overtime and we do it regularly to keep our business moving. We don't have guaranteed pensions, we pay our own healthcare premiums which have almost doubled in the last 18 months, and whether anyone thinks my industry is as important as the car industry, then try turning on your TV to a blank screen, or opening up a magazine with just a few headlines. There is more to life than just screwing on fenders, or designing sun roofs that rattle.
Still, I don't believe government should pick and chose, because it's never right, never fair. Is it ok to save GM which had some of the worst management in the world and then overtax other industries to pay for it? Is it ok to save a million jobs in the swing states, because these states refuse to drop the unions and work competitively, while 10 to 15 million americans go unemployed? No I don't think so.
On a side note, I currently own RED cinema cameras, completely designed in America, mostly made in America, with a goal to be wholly made in America. The owner is Jim Jannard that previously owned Oakley and from start up, with no government assistance in 5 years he's gone from zero to owning the cinema camera industry.
Since they are privately owned they do not report earnings but most estimates put them close to a billion dollars of sales in their first few years, this for a very down, depressed industry that doesn't sell to consumers. Why does RED cameras have success? They keep the government as far away from them as possible and they work damn hard.
Oh yea, they also don't have union labor and overpaid management that get's million dollar severance pay when they fail and have to leave.
In regards to GM and any defense spending, America is a lot different today than it was at the start of WWII. Then we were 18th in the world in military power and had no real defense industry, so GM, Ford and all manufacturers had to change plans and make planes, troop carriers and boats. Today, that is not a requirement as the military/industrial industry is more than covered.
IMO
02-25-2012, 03:50 AM
#25
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Join Date: 11-08-2009
Location: Los Angeles, Dallas, New York
Posts: 220
02-25-2012, 07:21 AM
#26
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Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
Russ if this had all happend several years earlier there were other ways to have done the refinace. That is why Ford had options that GM did not have when they finally hit the wall. Few finacial arms were willing to give the lower interest loans Ford had due to the economy and the large amount GM needed. If they had that option it would have been taken. The CEO's of GM and Chrysler did not go to Washington and take a beating because it was the easy way out.
I agree with you that that would have been a better option but the truth is that option was not on the table when it all hit the fan. GM had banked on the new trucks they had just come out with to give them the cash flow to pay for the new car lines like the new Malibu Impala and Cruze. When gas prices went up the truck sales tanked and they had nol back up plan. They put it all on Black number 24 and spun the wheel. This time they lost big.
Right now watch as GM is putting some plans on hold and stashing more cash. They are looking to jack the stock prices up to gain value. Wall St has not been happy with their spending but it is and will be needed for them to revamp their lines. The cars they have now are only the old plans put in place to carry them through till the other new clean sheet cars are readied. THey are not like Chrysler where they can just rebody a Fiat.
Once the stock comes up the Gov will sell out and GM will get back to work. It is only sad as we will get a new truck soon and look at the gas prices. I just hope they have a model to combate the new Ecoboost F150. THis is the truck may car guys scoffed at and has not taken near 50% of the F150 market. It only gets 1-2 more MPG over the V8 but people will pay a lot more for it.
I agree with you that that would have been a better option but the truth is that option was not on the table when it all hit the fan. GM had banked on the new trucks they had just come out with to give them the cash flow to pay for the new car lines like the new Malibu Impala and Cruze. When gas prices went up the truck sales tanked and they had nol back up plan. They put it all on Black number 24 and spun the wheel. This time they lost big.
Right now watch as GM is putting some plans on hold and stashing more cash. They are looking to jack the stock prices up to gain value. Wall St has not been happy with their spending but it is and will be needed for them to revamp their lines. The cars they have now are only the old plans put in place to carry them through till the other new clean sheet cars are readied. THey are not like Chrysler where they can just rebody a Fiat.
Once the stock comes up the Gov will sell out and GM will get back to work. It is only sad as we will get a new truck soon and look at the gas prices. I just hope they have a model to combate the new Ecoboost F150. THis is the truck may car guys scoffed at and has not taken near 50% of the F150 market. It only gets 1-2 more MPG over the V8 but people will pay a lot more for it.
03-03-2012, 08:07 AM
#27
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Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
You might be right . . . nobody knows because it was rushed through so fast.
I still think The Chinese would have bought it, maybe bank financing if the government backstopped the loans like they do mortages. (I know, I know fannie and freddie? . . . but that still is the group that really finances american homes.
Now the problem with Gov. bailouts and ownership, beyond the gov picking winning and losers and not letting the free market work is today the FED is probably setting the U.S. car companies up for another fail.
54mpg fleet? Never sell in America, even if fuel is 7 bucks a gallon. Americans move too much stuff, drive a lot and like larger cars because we travel much further distances.
Had this been public finance, the car companies would have fought the gov like crazy to keep the fleet numbers around 34 mpg, but now they can't do a thing because two are a ward of the state.
Look at the Volt. Good car for a semi hybrid, cost a fortune to make, they can't sell them even if they drop the price. They have them stacked in lots.
Now this wasn't a tarp deal but under the current administration this was a government payout under the DOE. Come one man, let the free market work.
IMO
I still think The Chinese would have bought it, maybe bank financing if the government backstopped the loans like they do mortages. (I know, I know fannie and freddie? . . . but that still is the group that really finances american homes.
Now the problem with Gov. bailouts and ownership, beyond the gov picking winning and losers and not letting the free market work is today the FED is probably setting the U.S. car companies up for another fail.
54mpg fleet? Never sell in America, even if fuel is 7 bucks a gallon. Americans move too much stuff, drive a lot and like larger cars because we travel much further distances.
Had this been public finance, the car companies would have fought the gov like crazy to keep the fleet numbers around 34 mpg, but now they can't do a thing because two are a ward of the state.
Look at the Volt. Good car for a semi hybrid, cost a fortune to make, they can't sell them even if they drop the price. They have them stacked in lots.
Now this wasn't a tarp deal but under the current administration this was a government payout under the DOE. Come one man, let the free market work.
IMO
The price will be up and GM never expected to sell more than 10,000 from the start. Two major issue have happend that hurt GM now. The false alarm over the so called fire issue really really hurts this was one thing that could kill any car not just one like this. Also GM has already made a Cruze Eco that sells for much less that gets great MPG.
GM is in a catch 22 right now as the publicity of selling a Volt at a loss like Toyots did the first Prius would hurt stock prices. Also if they chose to stop selling these cars today and take the loss it would effect stock prices. Also with the new rules coming they need to keep this technology in play as this may be the only way they will reach their higer MPG levels and still be able to sell other cars many want.
We can blame China all we want and I agee they are taking advantage of the issues but no one is holding a gun to our heads to take the Chinese loans. Till the goverment stops the waste and a lot of the entitlement spending we are not are going to change our future.
We now have the democrates making birth control a political issue for the election now. Where is this going to stop. They worked hard to make a law student a martyr for their cause. If this was a life or death thing for something someone had not control over that is one thing but this is something each and every person has control over. With all the money planed parenthood just got send those who can not afford their pills or condoms get the help there.
The goverment can not be the do all be all for everyone. It is up to personal responsibility of each of us to where we get in life.
For those who don't think you can't make it today just look around. How do so many many immigrants come here work hard get good grades and make many Americans born here look bad while they wait for someone else to supply many of their needs.
Sorry to get off track a little but this whole thing is just more involved and there are no absolutes contary to what many beleive.
The next 10 years will be the new start we need or the end of the US as we know it. If the spending is not cut to the waste and we keep a strong defense we will not be a factor as we once were.
03-04-2012, 03:48 PM
#28
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Join Date: 05-09-2006
Location: "Upland" Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 6,805
I'm requesting administration to lock this thread. The discussion has essentially turned to politics and, while I do concur with some of the "talk" (and find it interesting), that was not my intent in starting this thread.
A suggestion to the members of the political discussion....start a new thread with your topic.
A suggestion to the members of the political discussion....start a new thread with your topic.
03-04-2012, 04:09 PM
#29
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Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
Sorry when you speak of GM today and Profits it's going to turn to political talk every time till they are back fully in the public domain.
03-04-2012, 05:31 PM
#30
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Join Date: 11-08-2009
Location: Los Angeles, Dallas, New York
Posts: 220
I'm requesting administration to lock this thread. The discussion has essentially turned to politics and, while I do concur with some of the "talk" (and find it interesting), that was not my intent in starting this thread.
A suggestion to the members of the political discussion....start a new thread with your topic.
A suggestion to the members of the political discussion....start a new thread with your topic.
The only thing I have in defense is to say what goes on in politics has a great effect on the cars we drive now (including any sports model) and the cars we will drive in the future.
Remember, GM and other companies monitor these type of threads and use them to gauge public opinion.
But once again, sorry.
IMO