Fuel Question
03-14-2010 | 08:33 PM
#21
Senior Member
Joined: 08-06-2008
Posts: 1,761
From: Grand Haven, MI
Very well explained. These are the accurate facts on this.
For marketing GM likes give the owner the option with RECOMENDED. This way it may not prevent someone from not buying a car due to a REQUIRED that was used in the past on all of the performance engines.
General rule is the engine will lose around 20 HP depending on the engine application.
Also it will not will not void your warranty. Now if it said REQUIRED then it would.
The bottom line is there is no real right or wrong answer here as either will work and it is up to each and every driver to choose what he or she whats. more Power or a few cents saved per gallon.
It is really that simple.
For marketing GM likes give the owner the option with RECOMENDED. This way it may not prevent someone from not buying a car due to a REQUIRED that was used in the past on all of the performance engines.
General rule is the engine will lose around 20 HP depending on the engine application.
Also it will not will not void your warranty. Now if it said REQUIRED then it would.
The bottom line is there is no real right or wrong answer here as either will work and it is up to each and every driver to choose what he or she whats. more Power or a few cents saved per gallon.
It is really that simple.
The car in question has the auto. Since the auto without the turbo upgrade (stage kit) is already detuned by 25hp (235 vs 260 for the manual) would running 87 oct still loose ANOTHER 20 hp?
03-15-2010 | 06:59 AM
#22
Senior Member
Joined: 07-05-2008
Posts: 5,464
From: Akron Ohio
My experience is mostly with the LS3 and 3800 SC Series III.
The GM systems can pull the power at the points it is needed so normal driving is usally not effected much but under loads and higher boost the power can trail off once knock is detected.
I know on cars like the Mustang they can not use timing gears with noise as it sets off the detector and effects performance.
In the GTP I know they also pull power and timing at the shift points to protect the tranny. I suspect the same on the SS. A lot of performance was gained by some on the GTP but also some other issued followed on the home brewed tuned back in 04-05. I saw tranny failures and broken pistons till they igured all this out.
So to answer your questions I would have to guess no in the lower gears you may not loose as much but in the higher gears where 250 HP is possible the computer will pull more timing out.
Sorry but these are complex systems that few have really sorted out since GM shares all the info on them. Even the people who do seldom share all the info since they often sell the products.
I never used Regular in the SS but I can tell you in my GTP I can feel the differance. GM claimes on regular my 260 HP is back to 240 HP. You feel it more in the torque steer than anything not so much in speed. The wheel pulls a little more.
On the LS3 I have notice a little knock but it goes away. I have never driven one back to back to compare but my neighbor has and claims on his 2010 SS Camaro it has jus a little more power.
I think the many who used regular do not feel the differance in the HHR SS is because it may not affect normal driving as much. Since high boost is not always hit the car may drive normal and losses little.
With this not being a constant 20 HP loss it is not always easy to feel or notice. This I think why the guys who use regular do not notice it. Besides even will a little less power the SS still has more performance than a 2.4 so it is by no means a dog.
03-15-2010 | 04:05 PM
#25
Senior Member
Joined: 08-06-2008
Posts: 1,761
From: Grand Haven, MI
I don't have the numbers on this engine but I would say you would loose less in 1st and 2nd gear since it detuned but in 3rd and 4th gear you may loose more. It just depends how they have the programing.
My experience is mostly with the LS3 and 3800 SC Series III.
The GM systems can pull the power at the points it is needed so normal driving is usally not effected much but under loads and higher boost the power can trail off once knock is detected.
I know on cars like the Mustang they can not use timing gears with noise as it sets off the detector and effects performance.
In the GTP I know they also pull power and timing at the shift points to protect the tranny. I suspect the same on the SS. A lot of performance was gained by some on the GTP but also some other issued followed on the home brewed tuned back in 04-05. I saw tranny failures and broken pistons till they igured all this out.
So to answer your questions I would have to guess no in the lower gears you may not loose as much but in the higher gears where 250 HP is possible the computer will pull more timing out.
Sorry but these are complex systems that few have really sorted out since GM shares all the info on them. Even the people who do seldom share all the info since they often sell the products.
I never used Regular in the SS but I can tell you in my GTP I can feel the differance. GM claimes on regular my 260 HP is back to 240 HP. You feel it more in the torque steer than anything not so much in speed. The wheel pulls a little more.
On the LS3 I have notice a little knock but it goes away. I have never driven one back to back to compare but my neighbor has and claims on his 2010 SS Camaro it has jus a little more power.
I think the many who used regular do not feel the differance in the HHR SS is because it may not affect normal driving as much. Since high boost is not always hit the car may drive normal and losses little.
With this not being a constant 20 HP loss it is not always easy to feel or notice. This I think why the guys who use regular do not notice it. Besides even will a little less power the SS still has more performance than a 2.4 so it is by no means a dog.
My experience is mostly with the LS3 and 3800 SC Series III.
The GM systems can pull the power at the points it is needed so normal driving is usally not effected much but under loads and higher boost the power can trail off once knock is detected.
I know on cars like the Mustang they can not use timing gears with noise as it sets off the detector and effects performance.
In the GTP I know they also pull power and timing at the shift points to protect the tranny. I suspect the same on the SS. A lot of performance was gained by some on the GTP but also some other issued followed on the home brewed tuned back in 04-05. I saw tranny failures and broken pistons till they igured all this out.
So to answer your questions I would have to guess no in the lower gears you may not loose as much but in the higher gears where 250 HP is possible the computer will pull more timing out.
Sorry but these are complex systems that few have really sorted out since GM shares all the info on them. Even the people who do seldom share all the info since they often sell the products.
I never used Regular in the SS but I can tell you in my GTP I can feel the differance. GM claimes on regular my 260 HP is back to 240 HP. You feel it more in the torque steer than anything not so much in speed. The wheel pulls a little more.
On the LS3 I have notice a little knock but it goes away. I have never driven one back to back to compare but my neighbor has and claims on his 2010 SS Camaro it has jus a little more power.
I think the many who used regular do not feel the differance in the HHR SS is because it may not affect normal driving as much. Since high boost is not always hit the car may drive normal and losses little.
With this not being a constant 20 HP loss it is not always easy to feel or notice. This I think why the guys who use regular do not notice it. Besides even will a little less power the SS still has more performance than a 2.4 so it is by no means a dog.
I am sure that may answer some of the qeustions the OP had as well.
03-15-2010 | 04:41 PM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: 07-05-2008
Posts: 5,464
From: Akron Ohio
03-15-2010 | 10:47 PM
#27
Member
Joined: 03-25-2008
Posts: 69
From: Southern New Jersey
A word or two about octane. Octane refers to knock resistance, and knock resistance only. High octane fuel is not more powerful, more efficient, or cleaner burning than low octane fuel. In fact, cars that do not have the ignition timing specifically tuned to take advantage of high octane fuel, will actually see a slight decrease in MPG when running high octane fuel. I did some testing on a long trip with a stock LS1 powered vehicle tuned for premium fuel. I still got slightly better MPG with regular gas, although it was extremely difficult to keep from triggering knock retard, which will toss your MPG out the window. The fact that some oil companies only put their best detergent package in their premium fuel is irrelevant to any discussion of octane. For years, premium fuel was promoted as being better for your engine, and this myth persists to this day.
I've used 87 octane exclusively since new (I'm cheap on not really interested in racing) and just recently circumstances made it more convenient for me to fill up with with a tank of 93 and yes, I can clearly tell that it's holding back on regular, especially between 4000 and 6000 rpm. I got .3 mpg less than the long term avg on the tank of premium so not much difference there.
03-18-2010 | 10:12 PM
#28
Senior Member
Joined: 11-27-2007
Posts: 1,115
From: Austin, Texas
I have an Aeroforce guage that I set to activate the warning lights when the Knock retard is more than 3 degrees. I got a tank of lower octane fuel one time from a dealer that either intentionally or accidentally had the wrong fuel. At 91 octane the lights almost never come on, but with this tank full even when I backed the Hahn/PPC tune out and reverted to stock it was conastantly lighting up even at part throttle and low boost. So if you really want to know what is going on, get an Aeroforce guage or equivalent.
03-31-2011 | 01:04 PM
#29
Senior Member
Joined: 01-28-2009
Posts: 154
From: Raleigh, NC
I accidentially put a full tank of 87 octane in my SS last night and I can tell it is a little bit sluggish in 3rd and 4th. I added a bottle of Lucas Fuel Injection cleaner that will hopefully help boost it back to normal but I will be putting my old standard 93 back in it once this burns up.
03-31-2011 | 02:03 PM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: 03-06-2010
Posts: 6,869
From: Ohio
Don't lug it down or do any bonsai runs and it should be okay, watch out going up hills too. As soon as you can, fit some 93 octane in there, don't wait until empty, keep mixing the 93 in when you can. (Two Cents)